TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only

Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:27 pm

I have read several forum threads on this and have pieced together information here and there but I am confused on a few things. I plan to only replace the front brakes with discs in order to save some money. Here we go...

I found what I believe is the correct EMPI part number and it seems like the best deal on the front conversion kit is here...
http://www.actionimport.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=22-2855-0
However when looking at the image, and comparing it with the one that Jbugs sells, it looks like the brackets are not the same... http://www.jbugs.com/product/22-2855.html?Category_Code=1974-vw-super-beetle-disc-brake-kits
What's the story there?

I don't think these kits come with pads either. If I were to go to an O'Reilly's or an AutoZone, what pads would I ask for?

I watched a YouTube video on a guy giving a tutorial on only changing the front brakes to discs. He mentioned that you would need to replace the stock rear drum 17 or 19mm cylinder with one that is removed from the front which is a 21 mm to make it larger so you have better break balance between all four wheels. Is that necessary?

He also mentioned that you would need to add a new drop spindle on the front kit so the caliper doesn't get in the way. Is a drop spindle's purpose to lower the car? I'm not interested in that. He didn't say specifically but possibly he meant that you would only have to purchase those if you plan to lower the car. I will add that he did not specify his year or type bug. His may not be super so what he said may not be relevant at all in this paragraph or the one above.

I have also read where a guy with a 1974 super beetle said he had to use a copper washer between the caliper and the bracket. Someone replied and said the EMPI kit should come with that but I don't see them in any of the descriptions nor pictures on the sites selling it.

For a novice as myself, how many hours should I be looking at to complete installing the conversion kit up front?

Finally, the super beetle this is going on has a good bit of rust that I will be cleaning up soon. I haven't gotten a chance to look under it with a fine tooth comb. Should I go ahead and plan to replace the brake lines considering the shape it's in? If so, do I need to try to get a specific type here so it fits both the drum and the disc sets or is it the same stock type fitting on both ends? Thanks and advance.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:03 am

I can't help much because I don't have disk brakes. The metal brake lines however are identical between disk and drum. Don't skimp or cut corners on brake components, so if they look iffy replace them. Now to contradict that, you can test the brake lines by stomping as hard as you can on the brake pedal once you get it together and hold for a few minutes. Iffy brake lines will crack and leak, untight joints will leak causing the brake pedal to move. I broke the plastic on a brake light sensor doing this. Much better that it happened in the driveway than on the road.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:07 am

[email protected] wrote: The metal brake lines however are identical between disk and drum.

No they're not.

I wouldnt be watching any more youtube vids by that guy as he obviously has no clue what he's talking about.

Firstly no you don;t need to changed the rear wheel cylinders, bugs with factory front discs have the same the rear wheel cylinders as 4 wheel drum cars, you can put the bigger Super Beetle ones in but its not necessary.

Also he is arse about with the drop spindles.
The caliper mounts actually interfere with dropped spindles not the other way around.

With those caliper mounts being different, they both do the exact same thing just the calipers are mounted on a slightly different angle with the Jbugs one, no big deal.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:45 am

To begin with, the EMPI (first kit) has forged caliper brackets. Those are the ones you want. The Empi one is the one I installed on my Super Beetle. It works beautifully. And the Empi kit comes with spacer washers, so as to align the caliper with the rotor (to center the rotor, in other words). Also, you don't have to change anything in the rear brakes.

I do not purchase many Empi products, but this one I recommend. However, if I were to do it again, I'd have gone for Topline's Super Beetle front disc conversion, for the simple reason that it includes all you really need to do the job--and do it far more easily.

The Empi kit you showed comes with two new hard brake lines that are required for the conversion--but are somewhat difficult to bend for a novice brake person (like I was ... and still am, I suppose). I had to buy brake-line bending tools to do that job.

Topline sells two long stainless-steel flexible brake lines and the brackets to hold them to your struts. This makes it infinitely easier to install the conversion.

You will pay more for Topline, but you'll pay more for all the missing stuff in the $229.00 unit you pictured. The second link, showing the stamped caliper bracket, I would not use, at all.

Do yourself a favor and check out the Topline set-up.

Tim

Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:28 am

I agree with Tim. Go with the TopLine kit because in the end, after you buy all the extra stuff it really isn't much more. The instructions are better and support is just a phone call away with Jon at Topline. One correction though, the TopLine kit comes with the really nice cut billet caliper mount. Like Tim said it comes with braided stainless lines plus bearings, pads, etc.
If you are a novice, as you say, trying to save money and piece together brakes is not a good idea. Pay for a good kit, it's your brakes and the safety is worth it. Guys like Joel can piece together a kit with their knowledge and come up with something great and probably save a few bucks but save that for the pro's. Its your brakes and your first time so go with the best kit for what you need and save money elsewhere.
Time wise I did mine in a few hours but you can easily do it in an afternoon if you don't get sidetracked on other things you find under there and if the bleeding goes well.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:05 am

I still have the front drum system on my '71 SB Convertible. But if it came to where I needed new drums or just "wanted to" upgrade to front disc, I'm pretty sure that I would just get the entire kit from Topline. I'm much more interested these days by "avoiding hassle" than trying to save $20.....

I don't see real reason to go disc in rear.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:24 am

I was checking the topline front disk brake conversions (is on wish list) i wouldn't go with any other, ...

Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:59 am

I just installed the topline kit for my 71 super. I have to say it was definitely i very nice kit. Came with New Fag bearings, braided stainless lines, billet aluminum caliper brackets, OEM Ghia rotors and calipers. Installed like a breeze. I haven't had the car on the road just yet but the calipers bleed easy. I highly recommend the kit.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:10 am

Thanks for all the feedback guys. TopLine it is. I see they have a $399 kit and a $479 kit that has drilled and slotted rotors. Is it worth it? Is the only advantage better braking I'm assuming?

Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:46 am

I personally did not get the slotted kit. My car will probably never be fst enough to really need them. I figured that converting to disk was a big enough upgrade. I also added stainless lines and german wheel cylinders to the rear of my car at the same time. you could always convert to type 3 drums in the rear for more stopping power.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:49 am

Slotted is for better cooling. In normal driving there is no need.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:04 am

Her74buggy wrote: Slotted is for better cooling. In normal driving there is no need.
One could say this about all disc brake kits for Beetles.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:12 am

or any car

Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:17 am

Now and ABS system for my Super - other than my foot - would be nice! :)

Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:52 am

I bought a disc brake kit (for a standard Beetle) and had a lot of problems with it. During the process of trying to figure out why things weren't fitting correctly a problem was found with the rotors and the vender sent me a set of drilled (not slotted) rotors to replace the standard rotors that came with the kit because that was what he had on the shelf at the time. The drilled rotors didn't fix the problem but I did end up trying them on the car for a short period and they made a loud noise as the drilled openings went past the pads in the rotors. It was a sort of whooshing/whirring noise that varied with the speed of the car and got quieter when the brakes were applied. After that, I personally wouldn't want a set of drilled/slotted rotors on my car. Just my experience. Slotted might be different. YMMV. :? I still have the drilled rotors & would sell them cheap if somebody wanted to go to the trouble of doing the machine work necessary to make them work.

But I DO like the additional stopping power of the (FINALLY working) front disk brakes on my car. 8)

Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:27 pm

I'd also not recommend slotted and cross drilled discs.
I've got them on mine and like SBD said above they are a bit noisy, my windows are up nearly all the time so I don't tend to notice but the big issue with them is they can't be skimmed if they ever get any run out out.

Cusser wrote:
I don't see real reason to go disc in rear.

In most cases they are overkill, even with the big subi in mine i found the stock front discs and rear drums adequate for daily driving.
I swapped to rear discs which did make a noticeable improvement but it was more for the maintenance free side of things that I made the swap.
I do a lot of miles and the frequent adjusting of drums was a nuisance.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:01 pm

Totally Agree on the topline kits and braided stainless lines. A few months ago, I went with Cip1 kit and brackets aren't as good supposedly AND I needed the lines from topline anyway. You will need them, and the $399 topline kit comes with all of that. No hassles or wait for lines to come in separately. That being said, it looks like cip1 has a German made kit with forged/machined brackets and lines too for the same price.

Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:45 pm

Another thumbs up for the Topline kit. Another alternative, high quality kit, is the one sold by Aircooled.net. Worth checking out as well.

-jeffrey

Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:51 pm

Although I don;'t have a SuperBeetle, I've done a few front disc brake conversions for Std Beetles using Ghia components. I've noticed that probably all aftermarket disc brake conversion kits for Super Beetles, as well as for 5-bolt Type 1s (I know, this is the wrong forum) do not have the sheetmetal dust shields that were factory-installed on Ghias. I''m certain that euro-spec factory Supers with discs did have dust shields, but the steering knuckles/hubs could've been different than those for front drums so that the factory shield would not fit a US-spec Super.

So: Has anybody tried fitting a factory Super dust shield onto a US-spec (drum brake) Super knuckle? Conversely, without the dust shield on the conversion kits, is there a noticeable disadvantage?

Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:33 pm

Q-Dog wrote: Her74buggy wrote: Slotted is for better cooling. In normal driving there is no need.
One could say this about all disc brake kits for Beetles.

I'll rephrase for you. My reply to him should have been "If you are worried about cost but you are buying disc the extra $80 for drilled or slotted will not add any value to justify the extra money". I think he was already past the disc or drums decision.
You are right though. There's no need for an engine bigger than 1300 either but for some reason vw went bigger. I wonder why front disk were standard on bugs outside the USA if vw didn't feel the need? They probably would have been an option if it was just a want. For that matter why do most cars have disc if it's not an improvement? I dont NEED disc, it will stop eventually most of the time with drums, but it's a huge difference. Smoother stopping, no fade and no adjusting or rebuilding all the time. Yeah, it's a want not a need. My wife needs all the help she can get when she's driving it. For her it was like night vs day.