TheSamba.com :: View topic - TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo

Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:25 pm

Quote: there are only two in this area I know of, Jonathan Rall and me.

It was in fact Jonathan. He was super helpful and a really nice guy.

The fueling was my other thought. I think the rover pumps cut fuel out earlier than what would be optimal, but can’t say for sure.

For now everything works ok, but I’ll be working towards a better intercooler setup when I’m done traveling and then assess the pump/turbo after that if I’m still not loving the setup.

Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:17 pm

Dan,

Your setup sounds similar to mine except I'm running DLC764's with Karl's mTDI pump. Custom Intake manifold from Darkside Developments and the Renault 5GT A2A IC.

More info of my bulid under www.vanagondiesel.info

When you get an adequate airbox that breaths, you can get more out of the GT2052.

My friend put a K&N on his and gets a ton of air to boost 18psi easy without effort up the same hill I'm talking about coming up.

I recommended against the K&N, but it's not my engine.

I'm in the process of building an airbox where the Donaldson goes at that uses a 98 TDI Jetta air-filter and the box will be roughly 25% larger than the stock TDI box. The TDI airfilter is mroe than adequate for the TDI 1.9 VE engine.

I recently posted a video on FB of my latest tune with the turbo and the Donaldson. 18psi 1050-1150F EGT up a 6% incline in fourth (0.70) going 75mph up the hill pinning it 3k at the tacho. The EGTs won't exceed 1250F.

The AHU engine with bigger nozzles and a good sized injection pump that can pump fuel just needs more air.

After I get the custom airbox built and placed, I'll post more results.

vanagon_dan wrote: I’ll chime in with my experience with the GT2052

Build details on my 87 Syncro tintop:

ALH mTDI with stock rover pump. I tweaked the low smoke and fuel pin plus advanced the timing a fair amount.
DLC 1019 injectors
PD150 intake
Forged rods, stock pistons (new rings), 3 way hone on cylinder bores
Completely rebuilt head
ARP head studs, main studs
frank06 stage 2 cam
Custom exhaust manifold (necessary as I used the FAS mounting system which made it impossible to use an aaz manifold/adapter)
2.5” stainless exhaust with flowmaster cat and muffler
Renault intercooler in driver side pillar

I installed everything over the spring/summer, then promptly moved out of Seattle after only 600 miles of testing. I’ve since driven 5k miles and am currently mid road trip and in Austin TX.

Overall, the turbo has worked pretty well. I’ll echo almost everything that has been said so far. The turbo needs RPMs, and is pretty quiet until you hit 2k. I feel that an mTDI pump and your engine should be built to handle the fuel delivery and sustained rpms needed to make the turbo shine. I’m also having a hard time getting the most out if the GT2052, and spent a bunch of time trying to get my boost over the 17-20lbs mark. I’m not convinced that the engine is big enough to push that volume of air, but am happy that others are pushing forward on this. I went as far as completely removing the hose to the wastegate to see if I could spike the boost, but there was no change. Max boost at 20lbs.

The real problem with my setup is that I can’t boost hard enough in 4th gear, loaded uphill, to clear out my EGTs. I have to back way off the accelerator to keep from melting my engine, but the temps drop 400 degrees as soon as I jump down to 3rd and push higher rpms. I had my trans fully rebuilt with a new mainshaft and all 4 gears to match the tdi - 4th gear being a .70 straight cut gear. I’d have to be doing 85 to get the amount of air volume to sustain 20lbs boost and lower the EGTs, and that’s not super fun for me.

I’m leaning towards a VNT turbo with mechanical operation, unless I’m able to figure out how to get this 2052 to work in my application. It’s really a bit of a bummer right now, but is totally reliable and I’m not in a major hurry. I feel that in my setup and gearing a variable turbo will get me into higher boost lower in the rpm range and help me dump the EGTs so I can climb hills at a reasonable speed.

These are just my thoughts, and I’m certainly not an expert. Just a guy who’s trying to figure it out like most of us here. I’m sure I missed a bunch of stuff, so ask any questions you may have.

Cheers

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:53 pm

Syncro mTDI I built last, sold to Matt and Sarah:
LT 2.8 pump, PD130 intake, DLC1019s, GT2052 on late-AAZ 3-hole manifold, factory TD airbox, 2.5" aluminum from airbox to turbo, Spearco air/water IC w/ Lingenfelter 1" thick single core front radiator similar in dimensions to the engine radiator. Easily reaches 22 psi in the flat under full boil, 4300' elevation.
I'm thinking the pump, which has a much more aggressive cam plate, and the cooler air going into the engine are the key differences. The exhaust manifold also matches the turbo inlet so much smoother flow going in vs the turbulence caused by the earlier manifold w/ rectangular hole mated to the turbo's round hole.

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:45 pm

Great thoughts on this! I’ve seen both of your setups, and used them both for lots of guidance and inspiration when I was building mine out. The hard part is that there are so many differences to account for between each persons setup/installation. I feel like I’m now in the “tuning” phase now and hope to have some time next year to dial it in :)

My air filter is from 4.2 liter Jaguar engine, 2.25 or 2.5 from box to turbo, so I didn’t think it would be a restriction point. However this may be the easiest thing to temporarily swap out to document it’s effect.

Just to be clear, the egt temps don’t really become an issue until I’m really under load pushing up a hill. On mostly flat, I can smash on it and will not exceed 1200. But as soon as I climb a moderate grade, But I have to keep my eyes peeled to my gauge and make sure I feather the throttle just right. The typical 8-10 lbs boost during such climbs is not enough to burn the diesel being pumped in (I think). IATs also jump during this type of event, from the typical +30 from ambient up past 160 pretty quick. My first real change may be testing another intercooler setup when I get a chance. Right now I’m just in brainstorm mode

The pump could certainly be a big factor in this, as the cam plate and governor may be working against the current turbo/intake/intercooler setup. I am considering sending it on a vacation to Giles, but was hoping to avoid “custom built” parts as much as possible.

While I really like the GT2052 setup and its simplicity, I’m not necessarily scared to move to a variable vane turbo. With my combo of gearing and tire size (and lack of desire to travel above 70mph), I maybe happier with a moderate size VNT to keep me in higher boost around the 50-60 mph range.

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:00 pm

I'm still tuning the GT2052, but I'm close to 20lbs now, at 19 on a 6% up hill going 75mph. I'm around 6000lbs too, so yah I think it's doing well.

The upgraded Darkside Developments intake manifold I modded flows much better than the PD130 intake manifold I had before. Much more direct; take a look at the photos.

Also, the Renault A2A IC has two core thicknesses 3" & 5" (I got the 5) which in the latest push going up hill at 19lbs I haven't exceeded 1150F yet. That's in Arizona with thin ass shit air LOL. My friend last summer with the SAAB900 in AZ had higher EGTs than myself, so I think an A2A can be pretty efficient, if you choose one that flows well.

I know we both think differently about the exhaust manifold. I prefer the older trapezoid manifoild because it has a larger outlet and flows much more air esp when you put the two side by side with the 3hole. It's pretty obvious. As for air turbulance, I can't tell or notice any of the sort. It's pretty smooth when I looked at it. It maybe true, but again I can't quantify it.

The nozzles are something I'm still on the fence about.

The GT2052 is rated 140-230HP - https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/gt2052/

The DLC764 nozzles I have are rated for:

135-205hp

The DLC1019 nozzles are rated for:

120-190hp

It seems the DLC764 seem to be closer matched for the GT2052 turbo, but the 1019's must work fine as you used them. I have a set of 1019's from Cascade German I plan to swap in after the airbox mod and testing.

I know you also prefer the original JX airbox setup.

However, building an airbox that fits an air filter meant for the engine (a TDI) I think would be of greater benefit than the JX one. It would flow more air; as many on the lists push 400hp in the stock airbox just fine :)

That's the largest limitation I'm seeing right now.

I just ordered the material (carbon fiber) for the airbox I'm building for the stock TDI filter.

I'm excited to see the results and have the GT2052 really shine!

westyventures wrote: Syncro mTDI I built last, sold to Matt and Sarah:
LT 2.8 pump, PD130 intake, DLC1019s, GT2052 on late-AAZ 3-hole manifold, factory TD airbox, 2.5" aluminum from airbox to turbo, Spearco air/water IC w/ Lingenfelter 1" thick single core front radiator similar in dimensions to the engine radiator. Easily reaches 22 psi in the flat under full boil, 4300' elevation.
I'm thinking the pump, which has a much more aggressive cam plate, and the cooler air going into the engine are the key differences. The exhaust manifold also matches the turbo inlet so much smoother flow going in vs the turbulence caused by the earlier manifold w/ rectangular hole mated to the turbo's round hole.

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:30 pm

rotaecho wrote:
The upgraded Darkside Developments intake manifold I modded flows much better than the PD130 intake manifold I had before. Much more direct; take a look at the photos.

Also, the Renault A2A IC has two core thicknesses 3" & 5" (I got the 5) which in the latest push going up hill at 19lbs I haven't exceeded 1150F yet. That's in Arizona with thin ass shit air LOL. My friend last summer with the SAAB900 in AZ had higher EGTs than myself, so I think an A2A can be pretty efficient, if you choose one that flows well.

I know we both think differently about the exhaust manifold. I prefer the older trapezoid manifoild because it has a larger outlet and flows much more air esp when you put the two side by side with the 3hole. It's pretty obvious. As for air turbulance, I can't tell or notice any of the sort. It's pretty smooth when I looked at it. It maybe true, but again I can't quantify it.

The nozzles are something I'm still on the fence about.

The GT2052 is rated 140-230HP - https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/gt2052/

The DLC764 nozzles I have are rated for:

135-205hp

The DLC1019 nozzles are rated for:

120-190hp

It seems the DLC764 seem to be closer matched for the GT2052 turbo, but the 1019's must work fine as you used them. I have a set of 1019's from Cascade German I plan to swap in after the airbox mod and testing.

I know you also prefer the original JX airbox setup.

However, building an airbox that fits an air filter meant for the engine (a TDI) I think would be of greater benefit than the JX one. It would flow more air; as many on the lists push 400hp in the stock airbox just fine :)

That's the largest limitation I'm seeing right now.

I just ordered the material (carbon fiber) for the airbox I'm building for the stock TDI filter.

I'm excited to see the results and have the GT2052 really shine!

Flow advantages can only be truly tested on a flow bench.

EGT isn't necessarily a measurement of how well the intercooler cools. That would require temp probes on the inlet and outlet.

Exhaust velocity is important in an exhaust manifold to turbo. The flow path needs to match, rectangular to round definitely disturbs the flow. The late AAZ manifold in this case flows better with the inlet of the 2052, especially if port-matched to remove any flow disturbance at all. That one mentioned would have 10 psi by 1800 rpm.

Turbos and nozzles can be 'rated' but again many factors can add - or subtract - from those numbers.

A better airbox is a good thing, but spread out flat the surface area of the tubular JX / SA severe duty filter is pretty huge. I had once run a T3 on a 1.9TD at 30 psi and it wasn't lacking for air. An accurate vacuum gauge on the intake from the filter would show whether there was a serious lack or not.

Next up project, GT2052V. 8)

Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:12 pm

Karl, I've driven my van with the PD130 for what 80k miles now? I recently switched to the modded intake manifold, and I can SEE the differences in the gauges. The bends are fewer, and there's more air-volume in the intake. A flowbench would be the "if I had money way", but I use science via numbers reported before and after a test case.

Quote:
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Flow advantages can only be truly tested on a flow bench.
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Seriously Karl? EGTs are pretty much an indicator of how well your IC is functioning in any other read or application regarding EGT's. But sure, "technically" you're correct.

Quote:
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EGT isn't necessarily a measurement of how well the intercooler cools. That would require temp probes on the inlet and outlet.
------

Still tuning, but as I said, I can't verify any of this as it's functioning pretty damn good.

Quote:
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Exhaust velocity is important in an exhaust manifold to turbo. The flow path needs to match, rectangular to round definitely disturbs the flow. The late AAZ manifold in this case flows better with the inlet of the 2052, especially if port-matched to remove any flow disturbance at all. That one mentioned would have 10 psi by 1800 rpm.
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You know me pretty good by know Karl huh? Good enough to know when I get my mind on something I learn the piss out of it right?

This has been a real question hasn't it?!

"What airbox should my TDI Vanagon run?!"

Did you know that the Jx Syncro Air Filter (060129620) is only 150CFM?

Pretty crazy huh? Similar to the Donaldson G070020 which is also 150CFM; but better inlet/outlet sized ports than the lil JX housing. However, most like myself run the Donaldson G065433 which is only 120CFM.

The 120CFM Donaldson can push 20lbs on a K14 with DLC764's with no excess EGTs past 1200F pushing it hard on a hill, so it's more than capable of doing similar on the GT2052.

BUT, it'll create heat past 20psi with the K14 as it does with the GT2052, which I'm willing to go on a limb to state your 150CFM JX filter isn't that far behind choking itself.

One reason you likely had the Water to Air IC than the A2A which would have been fine (if you had an adequate air to the engine), to help that out some. However long running sustained 30psi with a 150CFM air-filter? Seems a little far fetched, but I'll take your word for it.

However, a proper air-filter lets your engine breath which on a diesel is a good thing correct? Just like on a 7.3 Cummin's you give it a better air-filter the rest flows better; boost, EGTs, power, etc.

Here's the JX Filter reference; others also collaborate these numbers online; https://www.finditparts.com/products/3758857/wix-filters-46415

Yah, the TDI filter isn't cylinder which is more ideal, BUT it flows more CFM than the JX filter (150) by FAR; I mean it was rated for a TDI car and over thought out compared to the industrial equipment the JX filter was also used on.

You can't argue that. You don't see people pushing 400hp TDI's with JX housings and filters, but you do see it on the Jettas and other TDI's with their stock filter. There's a reason most of the people tuning their cars leave them on, by how well they filter and flow compared to the alternatives.

My guess is that it'll be more efficient than my Donaldson as also your 150CFM JX filter.

Time will tell, but if you had a proper flowing airbox than the JX one, you likely could have kept A2A and not A2W.

Quote:
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A better airbox is a good thing, but spread out flat the surface area of the tubular JX / SA severe duty filter is pretty huge. I had once run a T3 on a 1.9TD at 30 psi and it wasn't lacking for air. An accurate vacuum gauge on the intake from the filter would show whether there was a serious lack or not.
----

Sweet! I'm doing a GT2052V on an ALH mTDI build I'm doing within the year.

One project at a time, or it'll never get done ;)

Quote:
Next up project, GT2052V. 8)

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:38 am

You added a much larger turbo at the same time as the manifold swap. Hmm. More air volume, of course! I'll wager 'Darkside' has never flow tested their 'design' against a PD150 intake. The EGT is more stable because you've added...more air, denser air due to the 'air pump' being more efficient and creating less heat. The manifold...maybe a tiny add - or not, since you didn't test each change individually.

The SA severe-duty airbox is a step up and away in flow from the original JX, and has been used in every conversion I've built and tested long term, save one. It's completely capable of flowing every bit of the air needed for any size turbo used in a sane conversion. Air boxes don't 'create heat', where did you come up with that idea? I've done hundreds of hours of tuning and driving at altitudes to almost 15,000' and you're telling me the air box is 'choking' the turbo? Nope. Want proof? A simple vacuum gauge. Test before, test after a change to something 'better'.

Intercoolers: you're trying to convince me that a liquid cooled intercooler is no better than an air/air stuffed back there in the corner where there in NO high pressure airflow? Efficiency can be up to 4X more with a well designed water/air. The proof is in the 160 degree temperature drop - AT 105 degrees ambient. That math: 290 in, 130 out of the Spearco : a 160 degree drop in 105 degree air temperature. That's 25 degrees over ambient going into the engine at 18psi. Do you think an air/air sitting back in the corner can achieve that? The answer is a huge, fat NO. The key is pulling that heat out of the core and cooling it over a wide area in the nose of the van, where the high pressure airflow exists.

You've got the basics, but built just one van. Compare that to 55 pumps +/-, many conversions, 350,000+ miles of testing and driving in many variations of pumps, injectors, manifolds and tuning. It's cool to watch you test things and learn what works and what doesn't, but don't discount extensive experience and knowledge.

Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:08 am

Interesting info for people

So people have wondered what the CFM requirements for a stock AHU and ALH TDI are?

210 CFM

And people use that for modded TDI’s up to 350hp!

The stock JX filter is 150 CFM
Donaldson G070020 150 CFM
Donaldson G065433 120 CFM which I do 20lbs boost with low EGTs

98 AHU filter reference
https://www.finditparts.com/products/2525175/wix-filters-46327

00 ALH filter reference
https://www.finditparts.com/products/2524777/wix-filters-42472

JX Filter Reference
https://www.finditparts.com/products/3758857/wix-filters-46415

Donaldson Reference
http://www.vanagondiesel.info/index.php/Cooling_System#Donaldson

TDI Cold Intake Reference
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=290373

Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:22 am

Okay, you’re the “ace” amazing how all the aces think they can’t learn from another. Weren’t you complaining about them to me last we saw?

I’ve done three mTDI conversions (two othefs for two people) and live and drive mine daily as tune.

But alas I’m no “ace” and I guess my well performing and prolooking setup isn’t VAG approved with “flow data from the aces.

westyventures wrote: You added a much larger turbo at the same time as the manifold swap. Hmm. More air volume, of course! I'll wager 'Darkside' has never flow tested their 'design' against a PD150 intake. The EGT is more stable because you've added...more air, denser air due to the 'air pump' being more efficient and creating less heat. The manifold...maybe a tiny add - or not, since you didn't test each change individually.

The SA severe-duty airbox is a step up and away in flow from the original JX, and has been used in every conversion I've built and tested long term, save one. It's completely capable of flowing every bit of the air needed for any size turbo used in a sane conversion. Air boxes don't 'create heat', where did you come up with that idea? I've done hundreds of hours of tuning and driving at altitudes to almost 15,000' and you're telling me the air box is 'choking' the turbo? Nope. Want proof? A simple vacuum gauge. Test before, test after a change to something 'better'.

Intercoolers: you're trying to convince me that a liquid cooled intercooler is no better than an air/air stuffed back there in the corner where there in NO high pressure airflow? Efficiency can be up to 4X more with a well designed water/air. The proof is in the 160 degree temperature drop - AT 105 degrees ambient. That math: 290 in, 130 out of the Spearco : a 160 degree drop in 105 degree air temperature. That's 25 degrees over ambient going into the engine at 18psi. Do you think an air/air sitting back in the corner can achieve that? The answer is a huge, fat NO. The key is pulling that heat out of the core and cooling it over a wide area in the nose of the van, where the high pressure airflow exists.

You've got the basics, but built just one van. Compare that to 55 pumps +/-, many conversions, 350,000+ miles of testing and driving in many variations of pumps, injectors, manifolds and tuning. It's cool to watch you test things and learn what works and what doesn't, but don't discount extensive experience and knowledge.

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:20 pm

vanagon_dan wrote: ...The real problem with my setup is that I can’t boost hard enough in 4th gear, loaded uphill, to clear out my EGTs. I have to back way off the accelerator to keep from melting my engine, but the temps drop 400 degrees as soon as I jump down to 3rd and push higher rpms. I had my trans fully rebuilt with a new mainshaft and all 4 gears to match the tdi - 4th gear being a .70 straight cut gear. I’d have to be doing 85 to get the amount of air volume to sustain 20lbs boost and lower the EGTs, and that’s not super fun for me. ...

Dan, can you provide the gear ratios & ring & pinion ratio you installed? Tire size as well?

Other than the too tall of a final (.70) drive, what's your opinion on your gear spacing? - is it too wide or just right? Regarding the straight cut gears, are they noisy?

Thanks

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:47 pm

Quote: Dan, can you provide the gear ratios & ring & pinion ratio you installed? Tire size as well?

Other than the too tall of a final (.70) drive, what's your opinion on your gear spacing? - is it too wide or just right? Regarding the straight cut gears, are they noisy?

I’m running the stock 4.86 ring & pinion.
1st - 3.66
2nd - 1.88
3rd - 1.080 (reduced helix)
4th - .70 (‘straight cut’)

Tire size: 215/70/16 BFG A/TK02 on CLK wheels

I just drove from Austin TX to Denver the last couple days, so it’s fresh in my mind.

Gear spacing is pretty good across the board, with the exception of 4th being a hair tall. I end up in no mans land at 47-57mph where it feels too much for 3rd and I can’t build enough boost in 4th to keep the EGT’s down. I think the .733 would be a better fit in my application. Keep in mind that the boost problem should be solvable with a few tweaks and some more tuning - but I still think the jump is a hair big. However, the upside is that I cruise pretty comfortably at 70-75 even though I don’t love to.

The noise from 4th gear is definitely noticeable and it does wear on me a bit, it’s a constant whine that increases under load and is especially loud at lower rpms. It’s not altogether horrible, but I do think mine is a bit worse than usual due to the Big Shot shifter. Being all metal construction, there is no plastic dampening and it really feels like the resonance travels up through the shifter. With my power goals, I would probably be served best with a reduced helix cut 4th, as my 3rd gear seems almost silent. Ymmv.