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Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:18 pm

Please jump to the third or last entry in this post. (Just below the second set of asterisks.) It best sums up my conclusion about Dynamat alternatives. Although there is very helpful information throughout this post and the entire thread - if your looking for an alternative to Dynamat.

However I ended up changing my mind. As I did not like the quality of the alternatives I found at the local hardware stores. I'm going with Second Skin Damplifier Pro, EZ Cool, carpet padding and carpet.

But here's the long version of my journey:

Before you blow your brains out because I have started yet another sound deadener thread. I've read thru all of them using the search function and they are really quite all over the place.

Some say that the asphalt based ones are bad for you. Like Peal & Seal. Others say they have used it with great results and no fear of off gassing or it melting and oozing out all over the place. Some say not to use any sound deadener on the inside of the roof. As normal heat will make it melt and stain your headliner. Even Dynamat will do this according to various posts I read. Some have used Quick Roof. Like in the video below. While others have recently posted that the "new" version of it sucks. And that the adhesive is not good. (See I did do my research. I did read all the other threads before posting this.) ;)

After lengthy reading I was steering towards Quick Roof. But if the adhesive now sucks. I'm not so sure I would.

I was concerned about the off gassing of asphalt based ones. But am looking for the best - cheap - alternative to Dynamat. I'm not building a show car. Or one to compete in sound system contests. Just a daily driver that I would love to be as quiet as possible. Without spending a ton of money that could be better spent someplace else on the vehicle.

Maybe this requires a new sticky. But short of that. I think it at least deserves some updated discussion of it. I'd like to do the entire interior of a type 1 with some sort of adhesive backed sound deadener. But again, the many topics on here sway between "asphalt is going to kill you" to "asphalt based products like Peal & Seal are the cats meow!".

What currently is being used and recommended? Brand name? Place to purchase? Prices? How much did you use - single layer? Dual layer? Is there anything as cheap as Quick Roof that is not asphalt based? Is Quick Roof asphalt based? How are cheaper products like Quick Roof holding up? Now that you've had it installed for some period of time?

(Lastly, if you think this conversation sucks. My apologies. Perhaps you should read some other threads. ;) Or if you do know of an updated thread that does not come up readily in google searches. Please share. I'm all ears (or eyes as it were). Just trying to weed through all the misinformation and information about these type of products. And the current set of threads that come up related to this in the google search. Are like I said, all over the place. Not clear discussion on what works and what is or isn't going to kill you. Cheers.)

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If you don't want to read this whole thread or any of the many others. Here's my recommendations after a week of research on the Samba and elsewhere. And what strategy I will be using in my own type 1. However there is a vast amount of great info in this thread. So please read on - it's good stuff:

Having researched the hell out of this issue. And read the many comments in here and all the other threads on Samba and throughout the internet. I'm definitely leaning towards one layer of (asphalt based roof repair tape) Frost King/Quick Roof/Peel & Seal - whichever is thickest at the time I buy at my local HD or Lowes.

(I steered away from Dynamat and it's many derivatives. As it was just to expensive. And far to many other people have had success with the cheap asphalt based products at your local big box hardware store. I've read some complaints. Never seen one pic where the asphalt based stuff ruined a car. But many many pictures where it worked perfectly. And reports back years later that it was still working fine. There just isn't enough hard evidence against this stuff for me not to save the money and use it. Asphalt based stuff will be in the sub $100 range. Whereas Dynamat is in the several hundreds of dollars range. There are fears of the asphalt off gassing bad things into your car. But my philosophy is we've been driving around with tar boards (asphalt) affixed to the floors and door panels of our rides for years. And driving around in cities filled with petrol burning engines spewing out god knows what into our lungs. I don't think this stuff - covered in other materials - will add that much to what we are already subjecting ourselves to. But if money is not an issue. Take a good look at the butyl based products. As they don't have those issues. Just my two cents.)

So after a layer of Frost King or Quick Roof or Peel & Seal I plan to put down a layer of EZ Cool. Here's everything you ever wanted to know about EZ Cool (go back to it's homepage for even more info and ordering - there's a faq and customer testimonials. This guy also has over 3000 good marks on ebay from satisfied customers. It's used throughout the auto restoration world) - http://www.lobucrod.com/Sr%20Project%20Report1.htm

EZ Cool is a "foam" bubble pack material covered in foil. That cuts 98% of heat transfer and a large DB loss in sound coming through. And it's fire retardant. Or sufficiently enough. Relectix does the same thing for heat retardation. But not so much for sound retardation. As it's just a "plastic" bubble wrap material - not foam - covered in aluminum. So I chose the EZ cool. It's $145 for 200sq ft. Which is overkill. That would do a bug twice over. Meaning two layers. But I do intend to double layer it over the engine compartment (on the inside) and in the doors and rear quarters. Maybe even triple inside the rear quarters. In place of a free floating plastic encased pillow of insulation.

Then carpet foam to get the proper contours needed in the headliner etc. Which is what my upholstery shop uses.

Then headliner and carpet throughout. I think this gives you the best of all worlds. With heat reduction and sound reduction on every part of the vehicle.

I think you could easily go with just layers of EZ Cool. For $145. And still have your base's covered. But I like having the Quick Roof (or whichever asphalt backed aluminum you choose) adhered directly to the sheet metal. As I don't think the EZ Cool, with all it's bubble impressions, would lay solidly directly on the sheet metal. And provide as much sound deadening to the actual metal as the Quick Roof would.

If I could only choose one though. I would choose EZ Cool. It's light weight. Very good on heat (98%!). And very good on sound insulating. And most importantly it's VERY lightweight compared to the others. And it's CHEAP for what you get. 200sq ft for $145 would do a complete bus and then some. That's far cheaper than Dynamat or any of the other alternatives.

(I was going to use jute or felt padding. But I think it would retain moisture at some point. It's a fibrous almost recycled clothing fiber like material. And is not supposed to attract moisture. But I think it's an old school way of cushioning and sound deadening. And that it would eventually attract moisture and hold it. But if your on a tight budget. I would not fear using it and some form of Dynamat type material under it. Then lay your carpet and headliner over that.)

* The one thing I learned reading about all of this - especially here on the Samba - is that peoples remarks are a bit all over the place. Some swear by the cheap stuff at Lowes and HD. Others fear it. And only one person really stated unequivocally that it slid off his bug on vertical spaces and the roof. No report of how much prep was done. Or the heat conditions. Etc. Etc. I personally read enough first hand accounts via thread and personal emails. That convinced me I will be fine using the Lowes/HD stuff on my roof. IF I PREPARE the surfaces correctly. You can't just rip out the insulation and whatever else is stuck to your floor, walls and roof. And expect it to stay. Your surfaces need to be cleaned and prepped with acetone or some other cleaner. To make it fully ready to adhere to. I'm also covering it with EZ Cool. So perhaps that will even better insure it against running or dripping onto my headliner. If your fearful you could get just enough butyl based product to do the roof. And then do the rest in the cheaper Lowes/HD stuff.

I hope this helps someone else in the same situation here as I am. Trying to decide how to insulate their vehicle prior to doing a new interior. Do your own research. Butyl vs asphalt based sound deadeners is where you want to start. There's alot of information out there. But I think after reading all of it. You'll come to the similar conclusions. Lastly, those with bus's have many more options. As you can actually use hard styrofoam like house insulation in your big overhead and wall panels. So search those sections (Bus) when your looking for information about insulating your bus.

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Here's my conclusion. So you don't have to read the entire thread. Although there is some great info throughout from other contributors:

So I went to my local Lowes and Home Depot today. To look at various products i.e. - Useal and Peal & Seal (I could not find Quick Roof. Except Quick Roof Ultra Bond.).

And I have to say I was not impressed.

None of them seemed to be even a millimeter thick. Very paper thin aluminum. And very paper thin asphalt. One was even bleeding black asphalt liquid inside the wrapping. Just sitting on the shelf. Or from during storage or shipment. None of them seemed like they would provide very much sound deadening at all. I guess I was expecting more.

I'm spending at least $1500 on a new interior to go over this stuff. And I just don't see myself using it. Maybe they stopped making the good stuff? I don't know. All I know, is that I wouldn't put any of the material I saw today on my vehicle. I'll bite the bullet and spend the extra $225 and put real sound deadening material down. I was looking at $150 worth of one of them and a bunch of aluminum tape to cover leaky seams. I can get real sound deadener for $375 (112 sq. ft.) shipped to me. That's a difference of only $225. I think I'm going to spend the money. And not worry about whether I'm going to get black gunk all over my shiny new white interior. There's always that old saying that comes creeping back in - "buy once, cry once". And after seeing what I saw today. I definitely felt like I would be crying one day soon.

But I wasn't going to let this get me down. Following this turn of events. I went back to the drawing board. And started researching real sound deadeners. And I found this very helpful chart:

My choice is the Raamat BXT II. I couldn't find Audio Technix 60. Or I might have sprung for that stuff. It's a wee bit thicker. But I couldn't find it locally. Or even anyplace on line that sells it. And frankly I like the light shade of grey that the Raamat comes in. As if it does leak. It won't be as bad as black.

So does Quick Roof and Peal & Seal work? I think it does. For some folks. And I wouldn't be afraid to put it on in a northern climate. But I live in Socal. And I have a black car. Yes. A "black" car. It absorbs heat. And for all the trouble it takes to clean the interior of your car. And to put in a new interior. I just don't see this as a place to cut corners.

I'm going with Raamat, EZ Cool, carpet padding and carpet/headliner. And call it a day.

UPDATE - There's a black friday sale on all Second Skin products. So I'm going with Second Skin Damplifier Pro. 80 sq ft for $270. And it's rated higher than Raamat. Still sticking with the EZ Cool and carpet padding and carpet.

Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:02 pm

In before this is Locked! :!:

Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Mike Fisher wrote: In before this is Locked! :!:

Really? I was really hoping to get some updated info on this. Alot of the threads are outdated. And are not really clear about a lot of stuff. But I guess if it gets locked. It gets locked. Would like to know if Quick Roof is asphalt based though.

Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:22 pm

The company "quick roof" makes a number of products. The one you want is EDPM, and not asphalt based
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
There are a ton of EDPM products, that are cheaper than "quick roof" and not sold at HD

Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:29 pm

esde wrote: The company "quick roof" makes a number of products. The one you want is EDPM, and not asphalt based
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
There are a ton of EDPM products, that are cheaper than "quick roof" and not sold at HD

What are they called? And where can you get them? Like edead?

Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:32 pm

a search for EDPM flashing tape will give you a lot of brands to search. Calling a local roofing supply will probably give you better prices that HD. I was able to find it in larger rolls for extremely cheap

Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:03 pm

I do not understand why you need to stick anything to the roof.
The insulation and headliner bows dampen the roof

Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:42 am

Sure I will play along, I have been using the quik roof & find it works in some places not others. On my squareback it seems to want to fall off under the dash, on the sides of the rear it sticks great & of course it is stuck on the floor. I made some bare aluminum panels & it sticks like crazy to these. For the roof I am going to use something else as well as under the dash.

Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:59 pm

I like second skin. Its not cheap, but I have not found anything comparable to it except dynamat. I have used it in all my cars in all locations (roofs, doors, firewall, etc. I have never experienced any issues with off gassing or adhesive failures. The change in interior noise is noteworthy (and worth the trouble and expense to me), but don't kid yourself, aircooled vws are really loud and you can't escape that

I have never tried any of the non-butyl based sound deadeners, but you can find lots of online information about their failures throughout hobbyist car forums. Edead, fatmat, iceshield (or whatever it's called from home depot), etc just seem like they are not worth the trouble for the money savings to me.

Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:18 pm

marklaken wrote: I like second skin. Its not cheap, but I have not found anything comparable to it except dynamat. I have used it in all my cars in all locations (roofs, doors, firewall, etc. I have never experienced any issues with off gassing or adhesive failures. The change in interior noise is noteworthy (and worth the trouble and expense to me), but don't kid yourself, aircooled vws are really loud and you can't escape that

I have never tried any of the non-butyl based sound deadeners, but you can find lots of online information about their failures throughout hobbyist car forums. Edead, fatmat, iceshield (or whatever it's called from home depot), etc just seem like they are not worth the trouble for the money savings to me.

So second skin is asphalt based? And you prefer the asphalt based stuff? How long have you had the second skin in your cars? Where did you get it?

Thank you so much for responding. Seems like sound deadener is like Ford vs Chevy. Everyone has their own preference. Does not seem to be a clear rule of thumb.

Lastly, it doesn't seem like (but correct me if I'm wrong) that it doesn't get that hot where you live in CO. Maybe that's why you haven't experienced the non stick, gassing or sliding failures?

Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:20 pm

eyetzr wrote: Sure I will play along, I have been using the quik roof & find it works in some places not others. On my squareback it seems to want to fall off under the dash, on the sides of the rear it sticks great & of course it is stuck on the floor. I made some bare aluminum panels & it sticks like crazy to these. For the roof I am going to use something else as well as under the dash.

It must not get very hot where you live in Canada. Are you applying it with a roller? How clean was your surface before you applied it?

Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:11 pm

The epdm stuff is pretty expensive. The company I currently drive for charges a couple hundred for some of em. Last one i wrote up was $245. I think it was a 6" by 100'

Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:55 pm

I used different products depending on location. I am pretty happy with the sound reduction.

For the headliner, I stuck to the jute pad sold in the Wolfsburg headliner kit. I used 3M adhesive spray, and so far so good.

Where I cleaned down to original paint on the rear package tray in the back (over the engine/trans) I used Eastwood thermocoustic, and covered it with original jute padding that I removed during disassembly. Carpet went over that.

For the floors, I used WW tarboards over the original rubber mat.

And for the doors, which I carefully sealed with all new rubber and fresh vapor barrier, I used Quick Roof, or the Lowes equivalent.

The known potential health hazards posed by using asphaltic products just are not worth the benefit of using it all over inside the car to cut costs.

Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:06 am

I've yet to find serious reports about this stuff sliding off or dripping. Of all the youtube videos out there from semi professional shops to individuals. None of them report it sliding off in the comments or in the videos. But it sounds imperative that you clean the surfaces really well before hand. And use a good roller to press the stuff on really well. I even saw one guy at a shop using 3m spray adhesive on it to add to it's contact abilities. A few reports of it sliding off or dripping in the comments. But after follow up it sounded like they didn't prepare their surfaces correctly.

In short I can't find any individual with pics or video of the stuff failing or smelling bad. I actually looked at a type 1 this weekend that had it all over the back side of the engine compartment. Under the rear window. On the bottom and up the back side under the window. It had been there for years. In the heat just north of the Mexican border. (Ya. It was quite a trip!) And it was solid in place. And no smell at all.

My only complaint would be if you ever wanted to take it off. It would be just as bad as old car tar paper. I had to remove that from a '49 Lincoln I had a couple years back. And I literally had to use an air chisel.

GTMAT sounds to be the next cheapest option from Peal & Seal or other types like that. Although I have not priced out by how much. FATMAT is supposed to be the exact same product as Peal & Seal.

I think if I ever use this on a roof I will put 3m adhesive on it as well though. Just to be on the safe side.

Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:38 am

New paint, clean, warm in the garage. It does get a bit warm, more humid. I like how it works, it just was not happy trying to stick upside down. All the vertical surfaces it sticks.

Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:46 am

My plan moving forward is to use the pad type like panicman, just a little spray adhesive & away we go. As I said I like the roof stuff. I did try a couple of test spots to check adhesion & sound deadening. I was happy with the results. I would recommend this stuff with one caveat that it may not stick upside down. If I put all my upholstery in I would not have noticed it falling off. And yes I used a roller. I have 3 sizes of rollers, the best one is like a ball, gets in all the corners.

Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:57 am

eyetzr wrote: My plan moving forward is to use the pad type like panicman, just a little spray adhesive & away we go. As I said I like the roof stuff. I did try a couple of test spots to check adhesion & sound deadening. I was happy with the results. I would recommend this stuff with one caveat that it may not stick upside down. If I put all my upholstery in I would not have noticed it falling off. And yes I used a roller. I have 3 sizes of rollers, the best one is like a ball, gets in all the corners.

What is this "pad type" you mention above? And what adhesive will/did you use? 3M 77 is for high temp IIRC.

Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:07 pm

So here's another twist. This is the guy that uses 3M adhesive with the peel and seal. Instead of that under the back panels he uses Home Depot fiberglass insulation. PRetty funny dude. But I'm wondering:

1) If you used the plastic enclosed fiberglass on top of PEal & Seal how much more sound deadening would you get? I'm imagining alot more.

2) What other alternatives would there be to Home Depot plastic enclosed fiberglass? Like eggshell foam? Or denser foam? It's really only the rear panels and the roof you could use it in. That one site about sound deadening refers to 3M Thinsulate insulation for the roof. Which is similar stuff. But probably alot more expensive.

I think that might be a killer combination. On the back panels and maybe even the roof. Would at least put another layer of something between the Peel & Seal and the headliner. In case it did drip or sag.

Kind of long winded videos. But if you skip ahead alot you get the gist of what he's doing. I think adding the 3M adhesive to vertical and roof surfaces of the Peal & Seal is not a bad idea. As the 3M stuff is rated to very high temps IIRC. And I think he mentions that in the video. I also like that he adds a second plastic barrier over the top of the plastic enclosed fiberglass. As a moisture barrier. Not sure that would be necessary in Southwestern or desert climates though. There are four parts to this series of videos:

Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:47 pm

The jute pad like the factory & there is another product that the name escapes me. The 3M 777 is a good spray adhesive. As far as putting in a foam product, unless it is in a dry area, & closed cell insulation, it will hold water & eventually rot out the area. Look up Hot Rod sound deadener & you will find more info.

Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:50 pm

Here's an interesting page on Mcmaster's website for sound deadening material. They rate each one by db's of sound reduced. Appears that plain old fiberglass insulation deadens sounds better than foam. Kind of backs up that guys video above that used plastic sealed fiberglass for the rear panels in his type 1. Makes me wonder what the db rating is for plain old cloth fiber carpet padding? That stuff that looks all stringy and is cheap as hell? (Unless you buy it pre cut. Which needs trimming anyway.)

That great rating on fiberglass below is also only 1" thick. I'm pretty sure the plastic encased stuff at Home Depot is much thicker.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/3543/=unhiny

Foam
Good (22 dB) 1/2" 54" 35% 60 54495T44 $21.50 55% 30 54495T55 $33.92
Better (26 dB) 1/2" 54" 70% 60 54495T46 33.71 70% 30 54495T57 48.18
Better (26 dB) 1" 54" 70% 30 54495T48 40.46 70% 30 54495T59 52.59
Fiberglass
Best (29 dB) 1" 54" (This is the fiberglass) 70% 30 9345T11 20.70
Tape for Fiberglass Sheeting—4" Wd. x 200-ft. Lg. roll 9345T3 Roll $99.22