TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1.9L TD AAZ Swap 5-speed transmission

Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:27 am

First off. . . I apologize to all of those who know where I can look to find my questions answered on this forum. I have searched and cannot find a thread that specifically answers my question. If you know where I can find this, please link to it.

I swapped a 1.9L TD AAZ into my 87 Wolfsburg a few years back. It has taken me a long time to work out the many kinks, and really, I still am. My biggest issue has been that with the stock 4 speed transmission, I max out at 55mph and am around 3100rpms. I'm nervous to push it above that for any consistent amount of time. I know that I can alleviate this a bit by getting taller tires, but I would really like to have a 5th gear.

Recently I have had some transmission issues and might need to drop the tranny. I'm considering a 5 speed. Here is my question(s):

1. I have found a document that explains my options: http://www.rjes.com/html/gearbox_types.html
Do any of you have other suggestions on possible 5 gears? Is this a reliable document?

2. Now that I have a selection of possible 5 speed transmissions, where in the world do I locate one of these? Anybody suggest a reliable online source to purchase a working transmission?

Thanks in advance,
Andy

Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:33 am

Andy, in general the 4 speed and 5 speed have almost identical final gearing. The easiest option would be to have a taller 4th gear installed. Weddle gears has some options for 3rd and 4th gears. Taller tires are maybe worth up to 200 rpm drop.

If not doing the transmission yourself, I'd recommend AA transaxle. They can freshen your transmission, add the taller gears, add oiling plates and replace the problematic 3 / 4 slider.

My TDI has lower rpm requirements so I went the route of adding a taller ring and pinion and a taller 4th gear. I can cruise around 2800 rpm at 70 mph. Your results may vary.

Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:17 pm

Thank you rsxsr. If I end up going with what you suggest, making 4th gear taller, what do you guess I might be at with RPM while driving at 55mph? I know you said that results vary, but what might I typically expect?

Anybody else out there do this to their gears in a 1.9L TD AAZ and have success with lowering their RPMs to an acceptable level?

Thanks again,
Andy

Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:37 pm

Gearing results are the same regardless of engine choice. It is basic math to calculate. There are online calculators to help, I just don't recall the link. It might be in the FAQ section above. Anyhow, you need to determine your desired highway rpm and then choose a tire and gear combination to achieve that desired rpm. The TDI makes its torque at a much lower rpm so my requirements are different than yours. I believe your engine is ok reving higher. Often you can look at the original gearing from the donor vehicle to get and idea what VW had in mind. You can also gear too tall. It might look good mathematically, but the engine won't have the power to pull it.

I have super oversimplified all of this.

for comparison. Stock WBX with .86 on stock tires.

Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1625 RPM 40 MPH = 2166 RPM 50 MPH = 2708 RPM
60 MPH = 3249 RPM 70 MPH = 3791 RPM 80 MPH = 4332 RPM

If you went to a .70 4th on stock tires.

30 MPH = 1335 RPM 40 MPH = 1780 RPM 50 MPH = 2225 RPM
60 MPH = 2669 RPM 70 MPH = 3114 RPM 80 MPH = 3559 RPM

Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:56 pm

It is very possible to screw up and gear too tall. Then is too expensive to change back. The AAZ is rated at 75 hp in stock trim. You are already close to the tallest gearing that it will sometimes pull, depending on the road conditions. If you only change 4th to be taller then you create a larger gap between 3rd and 4th. That means you would need to change both gears or suffer at times from the bigger gap. Are you sure you can't live with the gearing you have? Are you willing to tweak the engine for more power or have you already done so? What size tire are you running and are you willing to change to larger wheels and tires?

Mark

87wolfsburgedition wrote: Thank you rsxsr. If I end up going with what you suggest, making 4th gear taller, what do you guess I might be at with RPM while driving at 55mph? I know you said that results vary, but what might I typically expect?

Anybody else out there do this to their gears in a 1.9L TD AAZ and have success with lowering their RPMs to an acceptable level?

Thanks again,
Andy

Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:34 pm

Mark:

Thanks for the response. I guess since I will most likely need to drop the tranny, I figured I would at least look into what it would cost to move to a 5 speed. I can live with it, I have thus far, but I just wanted to know what my options were. And now factoring in the cost for making the gears taller, it looks like I have a couple of options. New wheels and tires can get spendy (plus the fact that they only save a few hundred RPMs). I currently have the 15' Michelin Hydroedges that GoWesty recommends.

Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:28 pm

In a more ideal world we could get a 5 speed that was like the 4 speed in the lower 4 gears and simply had a cruising 5th gear added on top. There is no such option for a VW T3 trans.

How about if you could cruise in fourth gear at 4 mph faster at the same 3100 rpm as before?

Changing your stock 4.86 R&P to an optional 4.57 would do that. The cost is significant but if they open up your tranny and see that you need a new R&P anyway then the extra cost isn't so much to bump up to the next size R&P. That keeps the spacing between all the gears the "same" but gives faster speeds at the same rpm in all gears. That still leaves the option to bump up the tire diameter a little too if the gearing change isn't enough alone. If adding the larger tires proves too much then you can switch those back easily enough at any time.

As for rpm, the AAZ has a flat torque curve at the rpms under discussion. That means if you gear to reduce rpms by 300 at 55 mph, or a 10% rpm drop, you at the same time reduce available engine power by 10% for that road speed. This is the danger you face in making big gearing changes. You can easily end up with gearing too tall, where it can pull it on level ground with no wind but any headwind or slight rise in the road leaves you floored and losing speed just to have to drop into 3rd and make the engine scream. BTDT

Mark

Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:20 pm

Below is a table that shows the transmission options.

You can also find it at the following link.
http://volksweb.relitech.com/helmut/GEARBOX.HTM#4Airtranny

I have an AAP tranny behind a stock AAZ. The high 5th gear is nice for cruising but the shift linkage is rather clumsy and because first is almost a granny gear you end up shifting very soon after take off. This causes a fair amount of anxiety when the person in the car behind you with an automatic transmission crawls up your tailpipe when your Vanagon slows down between first and second.

In hindsight a water cooled 4 speed transmission with a 4:57 final drive would have given a more drivable result and probably been cheaper (the AAP was a bit pricey and then needed a couple of gears and a slider replaced after the AAZ was rebuilt) .

Erik

The early 4-speed boxes for the air-cooled gasoline engines:
Type 091 091 091 091 091 091
ID character DH, DN DH, DN DK, DP DJ, DO
For engine 1.6L 1.6L 2.0L ?.?L
Power 37 kW 37 kW 51 kW ?
Year 78.7-79.12 > 80.1 > 78.7 ?

1. gear 3.78 3.78 3.78 ?
2. gear 2.06 2.06 2.06 ?
3. gear 1.26 1.26 1.26 ?
4. gear 0.823 0.852 0.852 ?
Reverse 3.28 3.28 3.28 ?
Transaxle 5.43/5.86 5.43/5.86 4.57 ?

The boxes with ID character DN, DP and DO include the differential lock option. The DJ and DO does have special gear ratings for mountains, but at present I do not have the specifications.

Second the early 4-speed boxes for water-cooled gasoline engines:
Type 091/1 091/1 091/1 091/1 091/1
ID character DT, 4D ABB DU, 5D ABD, ABE ACW
For engine 1.9L 1.9L 1.9L 1.9L 2.1L
Power 44 kW 44 kW 57/61 kW 57/61 kW 79/82 kW
Year < 84.7 > 84.8 < 84.7 > 84.8 > 85.2

1. gear 3.78 3.78 3.78 3.78 3.78
2. gear 2.06 2.06 2.06 2.06 2.06
3. gear 1.26 1.23 1.26 1.23 1.23
4. gear 0.85 0.85 0.85 0.85 0.85
Reverse 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67
Transaxle 4.57 4.57 4.86 4.83 4.83

Third the early 4-speed boxes for Diesel engines:
Type 091 091/1 091/1 091/1 091/1 091/1
ID character DM, DS DY, 6D ACP, ACR ABF ABH ALD
For engine 1.6L 1.6L 1.6L 1.6L 1.6L 1.7L
Fuel Diesel Diesel Diesel Diesel T-Diesel Diesel
Year < 82.9 > 82.10 > 84.3 > 84.8 > 85.1 > 86.9

1. gear 3.78 3.78 3.78 3.78 3.78 3.78
2. gear 2.06 2.06 2.06 2.06 2.06 2.06
3. gear 1.26 1.26 1.26 1.23 1.23 1.23
4. gear 0.85 0.85 0.85 0.85 0.78 0.78
Reverse 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67
Transaxle 5.43 5.86 5.83 5.83 5.50 5.50

Forth the 5-speed boxes for gasoline engines:
Type 094 094 094 094 094 094
ID character DV, 7D 8H, 8F ABL DW, 8D 8E, 3P ABN, ABM
For engine 1.9L 1.9L 1.9L 1.9L 1.9L 1.9L
Power 44 kW 44 kW 44 kW 57 kW 57-66 kW 57-66 kW
Year < 83.11 > 83.12 > 84.8 < 83.11 > 83.12 > 84.8

1. gear 4.11 4.11 4.11 4.11 4.11 4.11
2. gear 2.33 2.33 2.33 2.33 2.33 2.33
3. gear 1.48 1.48 1.48 1.48 1.48 1.48
4. gear 1.02 1.02 1.02 1.02 1.02 1.02
5. gear 0.77 0.82 0.82 0.77 0.82 0.82
Reverse 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67
Transaxle 4.86 4.86 4.83 4.86 4.86 4.83

Fifth a 5-speed box which does not fit into the previous table:
Type 094
ID character AAP
For engine 2.1L
Power 70/ 82 kW
Year < 85.2

1. gear 4.11
2. gear 2.33
3. gear 1.48
4. gear 1.02
5. gear 0.82
Reverse 3.67
Transaxle 4.57

Sixth the 5-speed boxes for Diesel engines:
Type 094 094 094 094
ID character DX, 9D 8L, 8K ABR, ABP AAS, 3H
for engine 1.6L 1.6L 1.6(7)L 1.6L
Fuel Diesel Diesel Diesel T-Diesel
Year < 83.11 > 83.12 > 84.8 < 85.1

1. gear 4.11 4.11 4.11 4.11
2. gear 2.33 2.33 2.33 2.33
3. gear 1.48 1.48 1.48 1.48
4. gear 1.02 1.02 1.02 1.02
5. gear 0.77 0.82 0.82 0.82
Reverse 3.67 3.67 3.67 3.67
Transaxle 5.43 5.43 5.50 4.83

Seventh: These are gearboxes from South Africa, still in production:
Type ? ? ? ?
ID character AOJ AFJ AFJ ?
for engine 1.8L 2.5L 2.6L 3.2L
Power 70 kW 100 kW 100 kW 121 kW
Year > 89 > 91 > 95 > 88

1. gear 3.780 4.111 4.111 3.780
2. gear 2.060 2.333 2.333 2.060
3. gear 1.225 1.476 1.476 1.225
4. gear 0.850 1.023 1.023 0.850
5. gear N/A 0.816 0.816 N/A
Reverse 3.670 3.667 3.667 3.670
Transaxle 4.833 4.833 4.571 4.830

The second ID character in the table specifies a gearbox with differential lock option:
4D, 5D, ABE, DS, 6D, ACR, 7D, 8F, 8D, 3P, ABM, 9D, 8K, ABP, 3H

Eighth: Some automatic gearboxes:
Type 090 090 090 090
ID character FF, FFA NJ NK
for engine 2.0L 1.9L 2.1L 2.1L
Power 51 kW 57-66 kW 82 kW 70, 82 kW
Year >78.6 All > 85.1 > 85.7

1. gear 2.55 2.71 2.71 2.71
2. gear 1.45 1.50 1.50 1.50
3. gear 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00
Reverse 2.46 2.43 2.43 2.43
Transaxle 4.09 4.09 3.74 4.09
Remember, the 2.0L is for the air-cooled, all others are for water-cooled boxer engines.

Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:19 pm

Why you dont put larger tires on the rear ? Ther is no problem to drive original 185-14 on front and 215/75-15 (or 225/70-15) on the rear.

Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:10 pm

I am planning to install the 094 4.57 R&P upgrade on this page:
http://weddleindustries.com/sites/weddleindustries...-14-14.pdf

I crunched the numbers and the taller R&P proportionally spreads out the gears so you still have a reasonable jump when shifting. You shouldn’t even need 5 speeds unless you want to creep in traffic jams or do a lot of off-roading, because it only adds a low 1st. Under normal driving your AAZ should handle the load just fine.

I am also considering replacing the stock .77 top gear with the .75 on that page. But with the 4.57 final any taller high gear than .75 may just bring you grief down the road.

Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:46 pm

If you are really hell bent on having a 5 speed GoWesty has a handful of new ones that they'll sell you for $4,495.00 plus whatever they're asking for the 4:57 final drive swap. Plus they'll want your old one back... and a $750.00 core charge that you might get some of back if your transmission has no issues...

http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4332&category_id=93&category_parent_id=

From their ad:
Quote: Very important note on shifting:
Your unmodified 4-speed shifter system will work just fine with this 5-speed tranny. The 5-speed shifter system is not included, as it is no longer available. Please be aware that the shift pattern on this transaxle is similar to the 4WD Syncro, where 1st gear is in the lower left position, NOT the upper left position like your current transaxle. It should be noted that shifting from 1st to 2nd on these units is an art form. It is not a smooth and fluid affair; rather, it is something that takes time and patience to become accustomed to. In most cases, one can start out in 2nd gear for most environments outside of uphill starts. 1st (low) gear is also lower than your current 4-speed 1st gear, and is very useful for light off-road use, while the top gear (5th) is taller than your existing 4th gear for freeway cruising.

Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:07 pm

When the time comes for me to upgrade my transmission to a 5 speed I plan to put a Subaru 5MT in my Vanagon.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=407222&highlight=subaru+transmission

Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:55 am

Thanks for all of the replies. It sounds like taller gears might be an option, and there is always the bigger wheels and tires. As much as I'd like to have a better RPM at cruising speeds, AA Transaxle is charging around $1,000 to do the gearing and overall freshening up of the trans, and that's not including the UPS and the cost of pulling the trans and putting it back in. One way or another, my mechanic can rebuild my current 4 speed tran for a fraction of the cost of the other options (5 speed tran, swapping in taller gears or new wheels/tires). I think I'm going to stick with my current transmission. . . I'm OK with cruising at 55mph.

This leads me to a couple of questions:

(A) What is the optimal cruising RPM for the 1.9L TD AAZ?
(B) What could I get away with and not put undue wear and tear on the engine? Can I do 3500 for 3 hours on I-5?

Thanks in advance,
Andy

Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:12 am

Andy, Not saying your mechanic can't go through your transmission for you, but there are some very special tools required. Some are NLA. I have the skills and experience, but lack some of the tools necessary. There are also some upgrades that AA can do to improve the reliability connected to a more powerful engine. They have done both my current transmission and my front differential for my Syncro.

I am not familiar with the desired cruising rpm for that engine.

Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:19 am

87wolfsburgedition wrote: Thanks for all of the replies. It sounds like taller gears might be an option, and there is always the bigger wheels and tires. As much as I'd like to have a better RPM at cruising speeds, AA Transaxle is charging around $1,000 to do the gearing and overall freshening up of the trans, and that's not including the UPS and the cost of pulling the trans and putting it back in. One way or another, my mechanic can rebuild my current 4 speed tran for a fraction of the cost of the other options (5 speed tran, swapping in taller gears or new wheels/tires). I think I'm going to stick with my current transmission. . . I'm OK with cruising at 55mph.

This leads me to a couple of questions:

(A) What is the optimal cruising RPM for the 1.9L TD AAZ?
(B) What could I get away with and not put undue wear and tear on the engine? Can I do 3500 for 3 hours on I-5?

Thanks in advance,
Andy

A: the answer is individual. Depends on the speed, shape, tires, street. I feel good at 3000-3300 in my AAZ syncro. Less revos, less consumption.

B: The AAZ has no problem with 3500. If u find a flat street for 3 hours.
You should keep an eye on the temperature.

Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:51 am

Definitely plan on installing an oil cooler if you haven't already done so. I got an oil cooler that has a thermostatic valve and a cooling fan that is controlled by an inline electric thermostat.

[/url]http://www.jegs.com/i/Derale/259/15450/10002/-1

I also installed an oil temperature gauge.

Erik

Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:57 pm

If you are still interested in a 5 speed swap, here is a sample of my 5 speed AAP tranny notes:

pedrokrusher wrote: -----------------------------Regular AAP box----Modified AAP box
1st speed @3000RPM:--------20 km/h-------------23 km/h
2nd speed @ 3000RPM:-------36 km/h ------------39 km/h
3rd speed @ 3000RPM:-------56 km/h-------------60 km/h
4th speed @ 3000RPM:-------82 km/h-------------90 km/h
5th speed @ 3000RPM:-------101 km/h-----------120 km/h
Want to read more?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6761187&highlight=#6761187

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