TheSamba.com :: View topic - Everything about CB Performance Black Box

Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:19 am

Pat D wrote: Porsche 60, can you post a screen shot of your timing table?

i think i don't have the latest timing file in my computor.
i'll upload tomorrow.

oh, another idea.
how about automatic save to file?

Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:33 am

donnmon wrote: Porsche60 wrote:

two curves theory is easy to understand.
it's same as SVDA.
but i think it is not "fully" programmable.

as tuning my car, and as seeing timing tables from others, optimum timing curve seems not linear.
you can't set like that with only two curves.

that's why most ignition softwares use timing tables.

I think that you misunderstand the basis of tuning with the 123Tune. It is fully programmable just it does not use a spark table like the Black Box.

Pat is right. This would appear not to be the best place to discuss this. I apologise for hijacking your thread, I just wanted to point out an alternative to the Black Box that addressed your issues and hoped to do this without upsetting anyone.

Once again I apologise for this.

i don't care.
comparing with others is necessary.

i was interested in 123 ignition almost 10 years ago.
it was not programmable then.
sometimes i have thought to buy one but the price and the look stopped me.

interest thing about 123 is stabilizing. (i'm not sure how you call)
123ignition stabilizes slight burning error, iirc.
that smooths out timing.

if the black box has that feature, it would be great.
but i think it would need more than one trigger.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:52 am

Porsche60 wrote:
sometimes i have thought to buy one but the price and the look stopped me.

This is the real problem with the 123Tune. The price is too high for most people. It is also what I like about the Black Box. It's price point give a lot of people a real chance to experience the kind of gas mileages that are possible with old VWs without laying out a lot of cash.

I will start another thread on it an post the link to the software there.

Thanks again. Hope all goes well for you in your ignition adventures.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:54 am

For $200 I think its awesome.

My only complaint is I wish I could work on a timing table "offline" (without being connected) and then be able to connect it and upload it once I'm done.

Thanks for making a great product Pat!

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:08 am

theDrew wrote: My only complaint is I wish I could work on a timing table "offline" (without being connected) and then be able to connect it and upload it once I'm done.

you can do it.
but it's not so friendly.

open the dashboard without connection.
click "File>Open user timing map from file and load"
choose a base timing file you start with.
click "Send" then error dialog appears.
click "OK" to close the error dialog and click "Close" on Load dialog.

click Edit>Spark Table then you can tune timing.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:23 am

If this thread is supposed to be a peer review of the Black Box, then here is my peer review.

As I suggested in the "Post your map" thread, this is an "almost there" product. It's pretty good, but could be a lot better with a better MAP sensor and better documentation.

In April of this year I e-mailed Mark at CB with some constructive criticism regarding some typos and inaccuracies in the documentation and made suggestions on how it could be improved. His response was positive and said he would act on my suggestions but as yet I am not aware of any changes.

These are relatively minor issues, but the MAP sensor accuracy is not, it limits what could otherwise be a very good product and excellent bang for your buck.

Now we are told that the MAP sensor has an accuracy of +_2.5% at full scale of 500 KPA not the previously stated 3%. That is an allowable error of +- 12.5 KPA anywhere within the range of the sensor. Putting this into perspective, if for instance, my engine has a highway cruise MAP of 60 KPA, the Black Box could report anywhere from 47.5 KPA to 72.5 KPA and still be within "allowable" limits. That's a lot of possible error to have to tune around. The other thing is, is that error repeatable? Is the error consistent in it's magnitude and direction, or could be anywhere, positive or negative of up to 12.5 KPA. Think about what that could do to your intended timing map.

The good news, if there is any, is that 12.5KPA is a "possible" error. I'm not seeing that at ~100KPA true, more like ~5KPA, but I am seeing close to that at ~20 KPA true.

Is this kind of "possible" error acceptable? In our case, it might be. '77 Westy, T4 2258, 8.1:1 compression, 91 octane. Just complete a ~3500 KM trip from the prairies, cross the Rockies to the West coast and return. Fully loaded, towing a loaded utility trailer, gross combined weight over 2400kg. Ran like a champ. The only possible complaint is that on very rare instances, on start up it seems want to kick back on the starter. This could be explained by the MAP sensor error.

Do I know what I'm talking about with regard to programmable ignition? I'd like to think so. I've been running a highly modified version of the Megasquirt V2.2 board and highly modified MS1 Extra firmware on three different engines for over 10 years now. I developed my own hardware and firmware to use the Ford TFI ignition when Megasquirtnspark was first introduced for conventional Kettering. I designed and built my own flying magnet latching hall sensor crank position set up when I converted the carbed engines in my boat to programmable EFI.

I use the MPX4115 MAP sensor. It has a range of from 15 to 115 KPA with an accuracy of 1.5% at full scale. That is a possible error of 1.725 KPA over the whole range. I can certainly live with that.

As I mentioned before, if CB would offer the Black Box with the MPX4115 or equivalent, and do some fine tuning on the documentation, it could be an excellent product.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:46 am

Ok, since its up again. While the 123 does have a good interface, there is still a good deal of little things that has to be done to the system, that it is not really that interesting compared to say the Black box.
WRT the 123 ignition stabilizing. Like I have stated before, this "feature" actually makes the engine more unstable and difficult to tune. And it will also make the engine LOOSE power (on the usb version you can fortunately turn that off) I had a good chat with Mikael Kiefer (BAS) at Spa this year. They also use the usb version on a good deal of their engines. To my question as to why(?) when there are other better alternatives for the money on the market, he replies "simplicity" That´s when I lost it, because it is anything but simple if you want it to perform well. Granted, if it has to equall a Brazilian 009 or a semi worn 010 you can come a long way with a reasonable amount of time invested. But if you really want it to be cutting edge, - forget it. Then the Black box is easier, cheaper and to some extend simpler..
If you really want idle stabilizer on your engine, (that works) go harvest a TZH system from a WBX or even a CU engine, and adjust the timing and advance curve to the type 1. THEN you can talk about simple, cheap and good bang for the buck.

Back to the black box :roll: :D

T

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:49 am

E4ODnut wrote: The only possible complaint is that on very rare instances, on start up it seems want to kick back on the starter. This could be explained by the MAP sensor error.

I have experienced this too. Probably 1/20 starts

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:50 am

I don't understand the error of 2.5% translating to 12.5kp across the board? Care to explain it to me?

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:06 am

Porsche60 wrote: Pat D wrote: Porsche 60, can you post a screen shot of your timing table?

i think i don't have the latest timing file in my computor.
i'll upload tomorrow.

oh, another idea.
how about automatic save to file? Many people do not want an auto save to file.
The issue is, you can't make everyone happy, if we tried, we would be chasing our tail for years on a product. As a manufacturer, you make a product that you feel fulfills what most want and for a price the market can afford. Can we make everyone happy, no but we try to make the majority pleased with our product.
I don't agree with some of the statements about the Black Box and it's tuning capabilities using a 5 bar map sensor. The Black Box has a 21x21 timing matrix, larger than most EFI ecu's that cost 10 times more. There is so much resolution in the timing table that you can tune around the +-2.5 % accuracy range of the map sensor. The Megasquirt efi ecu and the Megajolt ecu only have a 10x10 timing matrix. I can understand being concerned with 2.5% inaccuracy range with this small amount of resolution. This is why I want to see your timing table. I'm not sure of anyone running a noticeable amount of timing change from 96 kpa to 100 kpa unless it's in a turbo charged application. I'm not sure how anyone could hold an aspirated engine in this small range to tune this area for that matter. Now, if it was fuel delivery, this would be a totally different scenario. This is why we use a 2.5 bar map sensor on our new ecu with the availability to run an external map sensor of your choice. But, the ecu is 3.5 times the cost of the Black Box.
What I do know from years in this industry with development is this. We make the Black Box so it can use an external map sensor of the users choice, we then get hit with why we did that and not an internal map sensor for ease of installation. We use an internal 2.5 bar map sensor, we then get hit with why we limited the Black Box to only 22lbs of boost. It goes on and on.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:10 am

E4ODnut wrote:
Now we are told that the MAP sensor has an accuracy of +_2.5% at full scale of 500 KPA not the previously stated 3%. That is an allowable error of +- 12.5 KPA anywhere within the range of the sensor. Putting this into perspective, if for instance, my engine has a highway cruise MAP of 60 KPA, the Black Box could report anywhere from 47.5 KPA to 72.5 KPA and still be within "allowable" limits. That's a lot of possible error to have to tune around. The other thing is, is that error repeatable? Is the error consistent in it's magnitude and direction, or could be anywhere, positive or negative of up to 12.5 KPA. Think about what that could do to your intended timing map.

I could be wrong (ask my wife; it wouldn't be the first time!) but I think you misplaced a decimal point...

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:11 am

theDrew wrote: E4ODnut wrote: The only possible complaint is that on very rare instances, on start up it seems want to kick back on the starter. This could be explained by the MAP sensor error.

I have experienced this too. Probably 1/20 starts Please explain how the MAP sensor resolution can cause an engine to kick back during startup? BTW, The Black box has a pre determined cranking advance below 400 rpms. Vacuum has no effect on cranking advance in our software.
also, The map sensors accuracy range can not change from time to time like you ask. Its accuracy range is set whether it be + or - it's intended target.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:17 am

theDrew wrote: E4ODnut wrote: The only possible complaint is that on very rare instances, on start up it seems want to kick back on the starter. This could be explained by the MAP sensor error.

I have experienced this too. Probably 1/20 starts This is more likely noise during cranking. Where do you have the black box located? Are you running resistor plugs? solid core wires? One of these or all is typically the cause for the issue you are experiencing.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:58 am

Pat D wrote: theDrew wrote: E4ODnut wrote: The only possible complaint is that on very rare instances, on start up it seems want to kick back on the starter. This could be explained by the MAP sensor error.

I have experienced this too. Probably 1/20 starts This is more likely noise during cranking. Where do you have the black box located? Are you running resistor plugs? solid core wires? One of these or all is typically the cause for the issue you are experiencing.

Blackbox is mounted on the firewall. I'm running NGK D6EA plugs gapped at .026. Using MSD's 6AL box with the Magnaspark II dizzy with magnetic trigger. Running Taylor Thundervolt 8.2 wires.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:03 am

theDrew wrote: Pat D wrote: theDrew wrote: E4ODnut wrote: The only possible complaint is that on very rare instances, on start up it seems want to kick back on the starter. This could be explained by the MAP sensor error.

I have experienced this too. Probably 1/20 starts This is more likely noise during cranking. Where do you have the black box located? Are you running resistor plugs? solid core wires? One of these or all is typically the cause for the issue you are experiencing.

Blackbox is mounted on the firewall. I'm running NGK D6EA plugs gapped at .026. Using MSD's 6AL box with the Magnaspark II dizzy with magnetic trigger. Running Taylor Thundervolt 8.2 wires. Try running resistor plugs, it should help the issue.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:08 am

Pat D wrote: Try running resistor plugs, it should help the issue.

Like what?

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:09 am

Northof49,
In the "Post your maps" thread I posted a link to that explains full scale accuracy.

Here's a link to the MPX4115 data sheet.

http://www.freescale.com/files/sensors/doc/data_sheet/MPX4115.pdf

On page 5 there is a graph that illustrates the accuracy affects over the range. I don't know exactly what sensor the Black Box uses so I haven't seen it's data sheet.

Pat,
I didn't say the kick back was caused by MAP sensor error, I said it could be. It could also be caused by lots of other things as well. It doesn't happen often enough for us to try and find a trend. The box is located on a bracket also used for the throttle linkage above the centre of the case. We are using resistor plugs and resistance wires and they are not even close to the box.

It is conceivable that the error could cause a kick back in the transition from crank to run.

Error is not constant. If it was than I would be seeing a 12.5 KPA everywhere, and I'm not. It is my understanding that error tends to get
worse toward the lower end of the range. This is what I am experiencing and this is why it is so important not to oversize the sensor, or mechanical gauge, for that matter.

Your manufacturing choice was to compromise. That is your choice, but this is the result.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:14 am

So, Since we listen to our customers :D We are discussing adding a 2.5 bar map sensor on our next run of boards. This won't be for some time, we need to use up our inventory before doing another run, probably about 12 months away. Our software will have to be re written also. We will still offer the 5 bar map sensor for our high boost customers. Please don't ask for a 1 bar option, it isn't going to happen :roll: This stuff cost money to develop and we do not want to raise the price of the Black Box

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:18 am

theDrew wrote: Pat D wrote: Try running resistor plugs, it should help the issue.

Like what? Same plug, just resistor. DR6ea I believe is what you need.

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:18 am

Pat D wrote: theDrew wrote: Pat D wrote: Try running resistor plugs, it should help the issue.

Like what? Same plug, just resistor. DR6ea I believe is what you need.

Thanks Pat!