TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:07 am

Putting my new project idea on paper and working out a budget...
I know crazy talk.
Anyhow my next build is going to be a 1960s Ghia. I have owned a few bugs but that was about 20 years ago. I don't know much about building a good vw based engine so I am looking here for ideas. I'm thinking I want right around 100-125 hp. Would not mind running a little turbo with no air to air. And a freeway fly transmission, the car will be a daily driver, and I commute about 45 miles a day. So it needs to keep the heater boxes. Suck or blow through carb?
What size should I be looking at? Over 2000cc or under?
What's this going to cost me with me building the pipe work for the turbo?
Should I dump the turbo idea for cost sakes for just 125hp?

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:53 am

Start with a budget and work backwards from there. A 1915 with W120, 40x 35 049 revmasters, and 44 webers would do it nicely....

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:57 am

Well if you look at pricing to get a T-1 engine to 110 or 125hp and expect the money you put into it to at least over 150,000 miles without looking at the engine, you may want to think T-4 as in the 72 and later buses 914 Porsches, 411 and 412 VW's.

If you compare the cost of the T-1 to that hp and a T-4 that usually goes well over 150,000 miles in 914 which are heavier then your Ghia, I know were I would want to put my money into. A cam and a building a 2.0 and you got the HP range.

Actually I have a Ghia at my site go to photos then click on additional photos.
Read the story.
www.nextgen-usa.com

Also go to http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1

As they Ghia guys that have done it.

Regards
Joe Cali

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:57 am

One can get 100-to 125 hp at wheels with 2180 cc (or there abouts) with normal aspiration about 9.5:1 compression ratio mild to medium cam (Engle 130) a dual 44's carbs...

2180 I built approximately like above, dynoed at 100hp at the wheels (that is with 20-22% loss calculation through power train) so at crankshaft it was approx. 125hp......

100-125 hp is easy.... Above that it get harder to come by at more expense...

Want real HP... Go Subaru....

Dale

Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:02 am

If the commute includes prolonged speeds over 70 MPH then I'd advise against turbo. You can run into cooling issues if your rpms and load is high enough to keep the turbo is spooled up all the time.

With stock heater boxes you are limited to maybe a 90HP combo, but I don't think that is so bad. Done right you'll love it.

Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:09 am

for a budget Type 1 build:
http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/
general considerations for any Type 1 build:
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-performance-engines/
This is if you want to stay relatively simple.

If you want to get somewhat more complicated, then read through all of the multitudes of conversions out there.

No doubt that a Type 4 will do the job with your 100-125ATW goal, so will a Type 5 (Oxyboxer). Both require a somewhat higher level of effort required than the Type 1.

Then

If you are comfortable cutting for a radiator, then the sky is the limit, especially in a ghia.
Subies/Mazda rotaries are needed for bugs, but the Ghia decklid will hide nearly any I4
VW,Toyota etc etc.

edited, cause I am not awake yet.

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:00 pm

I will not do the WRX thing on this one, going to stay air cooled.

So what is 100-125hp going to cost me?
I do run out on the freeway for extended periods so might need to rule out the turbo or add some other cooling to it?

Whats the cost diff for the 914 style 100hp vs VW style 100hp?

And I am not dead set on 100-125hp. Just kind of figured that would be a drivable/simi-reliable horse power level. I know its not going to last forever and don't expect it to.

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:11 pm

helowrench wrote: for a budget Type 1 build:
http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/
general considerations for any Type 1 build:
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-performance-engines/
This is if you want to stay relatively simple.

If you want to get somewhat more complicated, then read through all of the multitudes of conversions out there.

No doubt that a Type 4 will do the job with your 100-125ATW goal, so will a Type 5 (Oxyboxer). Both require a somewhat higher level of effort required than the Type 1.

Then

If you are comfortable cutting for a radiator, then the sky is the limit, especially in a ghia.
Subies/Mazda rotaries are needed for bugs, but the Ghia decklid will hide nearly any I4
VW,Toyota etc etc.

edited, cause I am not awake yet.

Thank you that first one looks just about the route I may go, 90hp is not far off my goal, and for around 1k you can't beat that. I may do a few different things, so thinking $1500-2000k will be enough to get what I want.

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:18 pm

Hoptoit wrote: I do run out on the freeway for extended periods so might need to rule out the turbo or add some other cooling to it?
Most anything you can add cooling-wise is going to apply to the oil. As power goes up the heads are where the limit can be reached.

For a 60s Ghia think about a late decklid. I think around 71(?) the decklid changed to allow much more air to flow.

Max

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:25 pm

Hoptoit, welcome!
One of my motors does 70rwhp (around 90-95 flywheel) with a 1916cc, Kadrons and stock DP heads. This is an excellent, long-lived, economical daily-driver type engine that, just like the original, will happily cruise at 70mph for across-continent trips.

It, and many others like it down here, will pull a Beetle through the quarter mile in the 16s (not hi-po quick, but great for a daily) and if machined/built by a competent engine builder, will see 100-150,000 miles with nothing more than oil changes and checking of tappets.

I know what you are trying to achieve with the 'freeway flier' trans but pulling taller gearing on the freeway does all sorts of odd things to VW cooling. A standard DP 'doghouse' cooler and fan - make sure of that! - will suffice - as will a totally standard oil system, with regular oil changes at 3000miles.

After playing with various gearboxes and cars over the past couple of decades, I have found the best all-round daily drive box to be the 1302 (71-73 Super Bug) unit. as it has well-spaced gears with 1-3 spaced a little lower than the later 1303 units for good urban driveability. Having said that, a box with a lowered third gear is good fun, too... and probably a better spend for you than a freeway flier. I am assuming, of course, you will upgrade to IRS...?

I cannot guide you on actual costs as I am in Australia... but in general, the cost benefits should be obvious: retaining many standard parts where hi-po components are not really required is good for the budget :)

Hope this gets you thinking!

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:26 pm

Max Welton wrote: Hoptoit wrote: I do run out on the freeway for extended periods so might need to rule out the turbo or add some other cooling to it?
Most anything you can add cooling-wide is going to apply to the oil. As power goes up the heads are where the limit can be reached.

For a 60s Ghia think about a late decklid. I think around 71(?) the decklid changed to allow much more air to flow.

Max

What I ment for cooling was turbo air, air to air, air to water, snow, and so forth.

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:33 pm

VWCOOL wrote: Hoptoit, welcome!
One of my motors does 70rwhp (around 90-95 flywheel) with a 1916cc, Kadrons and stock DP heads. This is an excellent, long-lived, economical daily-driver type engine that, just like the original, will happily cruise at 70mph for across-continent trips.

It, and many others like it down here, will pull a Beetle through the quarter mile in the 16s (not hi-po quick, but great for a daily) and if machined/built by a competent engine builder, will see 100-150,000 miles with nothing more than oil changes and checking of tappets.

I know what you are trying to achieve with the 'freeway flier' trans but pulling taller gearing on the freeway does all sorts of odd things to VW cooling. A standard DP 'doghouse' cooler will suffice - as will a totally standard oil system, with regular oil changes at 3000miles.

After playing with various gearboxes and cars over the past couple of decades, I have found the best all-round daily drive box to be the 1302 (71-73 Super Bug) unit. as it has well-spaced gears with 1-3 spaced a little lower than the later 1303 units for good urban driveability. Having said that, a box with a lowered third gear is good fun, too... and probably a better spend for you than a freeway flier. I am assuming, of course, you will upgrade to IRS...?

I cannot guide you on actual costs as I am in Australia... but in general, the cost benefits should be obvious: retaining many standard parts where hi-po components are not really required is good for the budget :)

Hope this gets you thinking!

Yes I do plan on IRS, no other way for a lowered freeway flyer car.
Thanks for the tips on the other trans models out there, Like I said I have not played with VW air-cooled stuff for over 20 years and even then I really had no idea what I was doing but I seamed to always have a blast doing it.

Im just working through stuff and doing some research to see what this is all going to cost me. I would like a nice car for around 8k total. Not a show car by any means, just a nice driver. I figured I would pick up a good driver that needs min body work, major interior work, and hope it still runs and drives so I can play with it right away, Build the new motor in the garage while still driving the car, save up for the rest of the IRS/trans and narrow beam and go from there. Install said go faster parts, then work on the interior then the body paint. Time frame is about 12 months from start to finish.

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:51 pm

Good plan... I reckon it's much easier to work on mechanics and interior than body and paint (although I am happy doing both) so find a tidy 'unfinished project' with good paint... but make sure you know what is underneath the paint as Ghias can BITE

Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:26 pm

Dale has it pinned down and I agree. But and lets get back to cost vs how long the engine is going to last.
Were your money goes???.
A Ghia, Subie the cutting of a classic bug is bad enough but a Ghia, no way. So Subie is out.
Granted Subie power is unlimited, but if you think about it a stock 914 will do 126 mph and that is with power in the 90 to 100hp range and a bug weights 300 lbs less. My bug is a 2.0 and even with anti sway bars, Koni Shocks , Drop front end and racing tires, I will never drive the highways again over 90mph. The car becomes unstable. Figure on cruising all day at 80 mph no problem, even on 90f plus days..
I am just throwing this in, if he can find a cheap T-4 and some people just give them away, the cost of just rebuildiing it and adding a cam, same addition as the T-1 and you got your 100 hp. The difference is the T-4 was made Stock as a 2.0 so the case and all parts can take much more abuse then the T-1 that you are building up to the T-1 power range you want. That said if you are going to do the T-1, it has to be done right to get to 80k without doing a valve job.
Even two ton buses make 100k ( if lucky ) with at T-4
So if you get the T-4 and just rebuilt it, use the Cali Style DIY method , It can be really inexpensive. A kit to convert a T-4 to an upright can run$500 to $600 , Cali Style ZERO If you have the stock T-1 and T-4 tin and do it yourself. Even the stand can be made many different ways other then having to weld the stock T-1 aluminum stand. If you have to have some parts made $250 max.
That said, one of the reasons the T-4 lasts so long is, it is hardly working to push a light Ghia and the heads being 1/3 larger then T-1 heads dissipate the engine heat.
Good on engine life but bad if you want heat in the winter. My car sleeps in November and wakes in the spring.
That may be your reason for not going T-4 because you said you want Heat.
Do what you feel is the best for you, the reason I wrote the manual was the let guys know there is another option other then T-1 without doing any cutting of the body. Actually a T-4 goes in easier then a T-1 because it is not has wide as a T-1..
If you are thinking T-1, Yes Aircooled.net has a great T-1 engine build, I know John for years his years of experience go into what ever he writes.

Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:48 pm

nextgen wrote: Dale has it pinned down and I agree. But and lets get back to cost vs how long the engine is going to last.
Were your money goes???.
A Ghia, Subie the cutting of a classic bug is bad enough but a Ghia, no way. So Subie is out.
Granted Subie power is unlimited, but if you think about it a stock 914 will do 126 mph and that is with power in the 90 to 100hp range and a bug weights 300 lbs less. My bug is a 2.0 and even with anti sway bars, Koni Shocks , Drop front end and racing tires, I will never drive the highways again over 90mph. The car becomes unstable. Figure on cruising all day at 80 mph no problem, even on 90f plus days..
I am just throwing this in, if he can find a cheap T-4 and some people just give them away, the cost of just rebuildiing it and adding a cam, same addition as the T-1 and you got your 100 hp. The difference is the T-4 was made Stock as a 2.0 so the case and all parts can take much more abuse then the T-1 that you are building up to the T-1 power range you want. That said if you are going to do the T-1, it has to be done right to get to 80k without doing a valve job.
Even two ton buses make 100k ( if lucky ) with at T-4
So if you get the T-4 and just rebuilt it, use the Cali Style DIY method , It can be really inexpensive. A kit to convert a T-4 to an upright can run$500 to $600 , Cali Style ZERO If you have the stock T-1 and T-4 tin and do it yourself. Even the stand can be made many different ways other then having to weld the stock T-1 aluminum stand. If you have to have some parts made $250 max.
That said, one of the reasons the T-4 lasts so long is, it is hardly working to push a light Ghia and the heads being 1/3 larger then T-1 heads dissipate the engine heat.
Good on engine life but bad if you want heat in the winter. My car sleeps in November and wakes in the spring.
That may be your reason for not going T-4 because you said you want Heat.
Do what you feel is the best for you, the reason I wrote the manual was the let guys know there is another option other then T-1 without doing any cutting of the body. Actually a T-4 goes in easier then a T-1 because it is not has wide as a T-1..
If you are thinking T-1, Yes Aircooled.net has a great T-1 engine build, I know John for years his years of experience go into what ever he writes.

Sounds logical to me, thanks for all of the help!

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:15 pm

If you want heat, water cooled can toast your buns right out of car on coldest day of winter.... Water radiator heater under rear seat....

Dale

Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:02 am

VW Trends or Hot VW's had an article where they took a bone stock 1600 VW Beetle, put a turbo kit on it, nothing else, and made 120 HP.

Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:43 am

Howard 111 wrote: VW Trends or Hot VW's had an article where they took a bone stock 1600 VW Beetle, put a turbo kit on it, nothing else, and made 120 HP.

I'd be interested in reading that if anyone has the article...

Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:26 am

I'm sure I still have it SOMEWHERE in my collection of magazines. I'll look for it today.

Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:53 am

Howard 111 wrote: VW Trends or Hot VW's had an article where they took a bone stock 1600 VW Beetle, put a turbo kit on it, nothing else, and made 120 HP.

Its fine to do that sort of thing just for shits and giggles to show that it can be done but the reality of how long that engine would last, lets not even go there.
The stock engine will take a bit of boost but there is a lot that needs upgrading if you don;t want a ticking time bomb.

my stock 1600 I got up to 85hp at the wheels (probably around 100 at the flywheel) with my supercharger setup and while it was no spring chicken (first engine I built nearly 20 years ago) I know if it wouldnt have lived a long life without beefing it up.
You don't boost an engine and then just drive like nanny putt putt on her way to bingo....