TheSamba.com :: View topic - Lizard Skin Sprayable Sound Deadener and Thermal Insulation

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:41 pm

With three full restorations underway currently and many more lined up in the near future,
showing some of the products and tools being used as underlayers seems like a good idea.

First and foremost, I prefer to spray products rather than use the adhesive backed products found for vehicles and do not recommend using asphalt impregnated building materials on the interior of a vehicle for many reasons, none of which I care to elaborate on any further than what I have already posted in these forums.

The Lizard Skin products that I am currently spraying are:

http://www.lizardskin.com/

Sound Control: http://www.lizardskin.com/sound-control-insulation.html
A very heavy, black, sound reverberating coating that can be applied to an interior, ceiling, doors, engine bay, wheel wells....shoot, pretty much the entire chassis inside and out if you wish.

The product builds very quickly and offers many benefits just by itself, like eliminating rattles, quieting the interior and cabin and most importantly to me, adds a seamless barrier on all that it is sprayed on.

Ceramic Insulation: http://www.lizardskin.com/car-ceramic-insulation.html
Nowhere near as heavy of a product, but coats just as well. Used over the sound control, this insulation will help keep your heat and air conditioning systems provide the temperature you desire and it helps block driveline heat and exterior radiant heat from the interior and cabin of the van.
Available in white or black.

Another advantage to sprayable products is the ability to layer up and over them with an amazing amount of adhesion.
Polyurea, http://www.polyurea.com/ products aka "truck bed liners" are not new by any means, but being able to control the texture and tint the product to match many available paint colors is new.
With exterior Monstaliner prep for two vans completed and owners having plans to roll the Montaliner http://www.monstaliner.com/ soon, having all of the interior painted, coated and sprayed will allow very tight transitional lines between the interior and exterior of the vehicle.
This excellent bonding characteristic has me layering over the Lizard Skin with three different polyurea products for an added amount of durability and great build thickness.

I will do my best to take the time to document to the products, tools and procedures I will be using throughout the coming weeks, on various vans that are being worked on at my personal shop.

Anyone who reads these forums will know that Lizard Skin products were shown by BadassDubs in one of his builds.
I am taking the ball and running with it :wink:

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:49 pm

Ok, the applicator.
This is very important and if you breeze around YouTube you will see a lot of very frustrated novice sprayers.

Lizard Skin sells the applicator for DIY use and here is the breakdown:

Not the fanciest looking spray tool, BUT the orifice size is what makes it unique.
I own a bunch of different spray guns, but all have a much smaller orifice than what they offer and IMHO it is worth the $80 they get for it.

The pickup tube is over 1/2" and the control tips are 1/2":

A straight and 90 degree tip are provided.

Clean up is with water :D and if you get most of the product out of the gun, water down the remaining and experiment with it.
It reminds me of Flex Seal, as seen on TV :lol:

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:49 pm

Prep Tools:

Most of the sprayable product vendors will have nylon bristled brushes to use with an angle grinder to prep the painted surfaces.
This attachment works great for taking the clearcoat off and leaving some scratches for better adhesion.

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Dealing with 25+ year old vehicles, rust and older tech will have plenty of spots to sand, grind and bare metal.
80 grit paper is on the sander shown and it will leave swirl makes easily.
A rotary flap disc and assorted wire wheel and wire cup attachments will make life easier in the nooks and valleys.

Bare metal and RUST:

Use your choice of Rust Encapsualtor products, allow to flash, spray again, allow to dry and cure 24-72 hours depending upon conditions.

One adhesion trick I have found that works very well and eliminates some sanding is during the second or final spray coat, pull back much further than you do a covering spray and shack the can slightly back and forth, move around the work area in a random manner.
This works to add traction to slick surfaces and to add the texture to a bedliner. Also works with some underbody protection products.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:50 pm

Spraying the product:

Have a bucket of water on hand

I warmed the room to about 70 degrees and than used the space heater to blow warmed air at the exterior of the panel I am working for a few minutes.

Mixed the product as directed

For this first pass, the regulator on the whip connected to the gun is set at 40lbs and the tip is 1.5 revolutions from seated.

A little test

One full cup

I warm the panels for this reason, it wicks into the crannies really well

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:50 pm

reserved

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:12 pm

I'll be very curious to know what is different or 'better' about this sound deadening product vs these three other similar products, some for substantially less cost.

VBD-10 @ $36/gallon
Stealth Kote at $65/gallon
Quietcoat @ $60/gallon

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:36 pm

westyventures wrote: I'll be very curious to know what is different or 'better' about this sound deadening product vs these three other similar products, some for substantially less cost.

VBD-10 @ $36/gallon
Stealth Kote at $65/gallon
Quietcoat @ $60/gallon

Great question Karl.

All good products for sure and I have them and a few others on hand that I have tested.

For the most part, what I am doing with these products separates the different company's products quickly.
I am top coating them with polyurea products like, open cell and closed cell foam, expandathane moisture barrier and "truck bed linings".
If you read the MSDS sheet for all of the products mentioned and talk to Reps for the companies, many should advise that Lizard Skin will accept these products and connect to them incredibly well.

That is why I use it.

As I do my homework before posting most autobody materials and techniques, this layering system I am using may not be the lowest cost, but I can assure anyone interested that it is the strongest, most durable and will create an interior atmosphere far different than what most are used to inside a Vanagon.

I do not work for or have any association to Lizard Skin other than I buy the products at wholesale pricing and purchased bulk to get that price.
I will pass the minute savings on to my clients.
Anyone savy with eBay and such will see that most of these products are being blown out below my price with shipping included.

As with all autobody products the freshness of them is imperative for the best quality finish.
I order what I need and only save two gallons of each between sprays.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:51 pm

Kind of a long answer. :wink: I'd just like to know what evidence there is that any of these others cannot be coated just as well with other products. Perhaps you could comment also on what these 'MSDS sheets' say and what leads you to claim this one is "the strongest, most durable"?
Why would one use open-cell foam? Just several curious questions that come to mind, and baffled why so many layers of different products would be required. I'm open to hearing about better products than I currently use and have had success with.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:51 pm

Used this in the Breadbox and am very happy with it. Going to use in my other projects too. Not impressed with the 90 degree tip though. Useless.
Probably should be curved and it would work better.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:14 pm

How much do you need to cover one Vanagon interior?

Can you say a guesstimate of the price per gallon of the Ceramic and Sound Deadener? The links to distributors so far were only giving a link back to Lizard skin's website and not showing the price.

What amount of SCFM output is required for their spray gun?
Found the answer: "Air compressor capable of 70 PSI (pounds per square inch) at 5 CFM (cubic feet per minute) - Air compressor must have a water and oil separator/flush."

Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:46 pm

Four gallons will do it. Buy the kit, then you can just buy the product later on if you need more. I got mine off ebay from this guy. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lizard-Skin-Sound-Control-...mp;vxp=mtr

Excellent customer service and will he answer any questions you have. Pricey but I think it is a good investment in the long run.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:02 pm

westyventures wrote: Kind of a long answer. :wink: I'd just like to know what evidence there is that any of these others cannot be coated just as well with other products. Perhaps you could comment also on what these 'MSDS sheets' say and what leads you to claim this one is "the strongest, most durable"?
Why would one use open-cell foam? Just several curious questions that come to mind, and baffled why so many layers of different products would be required. I'm open to hearing about better products than I currently use and have had success with.

The short answer is, basic chemistry :!:

I use sprayable layers as I prefer ZERO air gaps for condensation to build and start the decay process.

Closed cell foam for vehicles and the equipment I purchased will also spray open cell foam.
Remember, I build homes for a full time gig.

The layering of multiple products has been shown very effective in the Jeep and ATV communities.
I participate in many roundtable discussions about these products and how they work together.

Bottomline, I have clients who are looking for a clean, dry, durable and quite van.
This is how I achieve it and have not had any complainants about the cost.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:12 pm

badassdubs wrote: Two gallons will do it. Buy the kit, then you can just buy the product later on if you need more. I got mine off ebay from this guy. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lizard-Skin-Sound-Control-...mp;vxp=mtr

Excellent customer service and will he answer any questions you have. Pricey but I think it is a good investment in the long run.

6 gallons total (4 SC & 2 CI) will be sprayed on the Westy I am currently working on.
Than 2 part sprayed truckbed liner over the Lizard on all horizontal surfaces.

Yes, the linked eBay auction is the best "deal" if that is what you are looking for.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:21 pm

Very cool, thanks for sharing! This is coming up on the list of things to do on the van, but likely this winter when I can pull everything apart.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:35 pm

hans j wrote: Very cool, thanks for sharing! This is coming up on the list of things to do on the van, but likely this winter when I can pull everything apart.

Ah, thank you Hans for bringing up another great point, temperature.
Both of the product and of the structure it is being applied to.

This winter here in NY was a cold one.
I have built a dedicated spray booth large enough for a Westy with the top up on a lift.
The products should be applied in an environment with an air temp of at least 70 degrees and the metal they will bond to should be even warmer.
These are my opinions after testing on a parts van.
It was very hard for me to get the results I would like with temps in the 50s or even low 60s.
This means that the most effective time to spray is in the Spring, Summer or Fall...unless you have the ability to heat a garage up to temp.
Since I have been undercoating for years with waxes and rust proofing, I have found that even during the summer it is a good idea to let a kerosene fired hot air furnace run under the van to bring the chassis up to above air temp.
This has worked great for me and you can see the products working themselves into all nooks and crannies as they are as liquid as they will ever be at this point.
These products do flash and off gas when heated, so good ventilation and a proper respirator are recommended.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:42 pm

insyncro wrote: hans j wrote: Very cool, thanks for sharing! This is coming up on the list of things to do on the van, but likely this winter when I can pull everything apart.

The products should be applied in an environment with an air temp of at least 70 degrees and the metal they will bond to should be even warmer.
These are my opinions after testing on a parts van.
It was very hard for me to get the results I would like with temps in the 50s or even low 60s.

Thanks for the feedback! Personally I hate working in the cold and before I start, I'll get heat and electricity in my garage (I do most work at work with all my tools and hoist and heat :) ).

I'll be insulating the garage and getting some heaters pointed at the work before I start! It might actually be summer before I finish anyway :roll:

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:45 pm

Once the tools, the space and the van are all ready to go, I find suiting up and spraying the vans to be a blast.

Have fun with it.

Than once all cured, the first ride is a real treat :wink:

Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:03 pm

Nice writeup, thanks. I saw this on the Breadbox build and it caught my interest as well.

db readings would be nice but I am sure you will notice a difference and update us.

Have fun with it.

Neil2

Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:22 am

Hopefully someone with a scientific background can enlighten me, but the ceramic paint blocking heat phenomenon seems 'too good to be true'. How does a layer of paint with 'ceramic microspheres', applied to the thickness of a credit card, reduce heat transfer? It just doesn't seem credible. You'd think this stuff would be a huge sensation and have independent studies to support the claims. I've seen little besides some forum posts and an ice cube video which doesn't necessarily 'prove' anything.

1. Are there any independent studies available?
2. What type of heat transfer is it blocking? Radiant, Convection, Conduction?
3. How does it work?

I just thinking that's a lot of money for a product with no research data outside of the manufacturer's claims and some anecdotal stories of success on the Internet. It reminds me of the vortex thing you put on your intake that increases mileage AND horsepower by 30%!

So please help me to understand how laying a coat of ceramic paint makes a difference in heat transfer. I really want something like this to work, but my "spidey-senses" are tingling.

Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:38 am

1621 wrote: Hopefully someone with a scientific background can enlighten me, but the ceramic paint blocking heat phenomenon seems 'too good to be true'. How does a layer of paint with 'ceramic microspheres', applied to the thickness of a credit card, reduce heat transfer? It just doesn't seem credible. You'd think this stuff would be a huge sensation and have independent studies to support the claims. I've seen little besides some forum posts and an ice cube video which doesn't necessarily 'prove' anything.

1. Are there any independent studies available?
2. What type of heat transfer is it blocking? Radiant, Convection, Conduction?
3. How does it work?

I just thinking that's a lot of money for a product with no research data outside of the manufacturer's claims and some anecdotal stories of success on the Internet. It reminds me of the vortex thing you put on your intake that increases mileage AND horsepower by 30%!

So please help me to understand how laying a coat of ceramic paint makes a difference in heat transfer. I really want something like this to work, but my "spidey-senses" are tingling.

Don't have answer for you, but me think it is close to the ceramic coating for header and exhaust system.