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Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:11 am

I'vw been asked to participate in an event in May. I was hoping to that the collective could enlighten me. Other than the basics and the obvious, I am having trouble with the following
"Uniqueness, Rarity of the Model".
I think our Ghia's are the most special car on the planet but I am stumped with this question . What am I missing?
Thanks 8)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:25 am

The Karmann Ghia, is considered a design milestone and it is now part of the permanent collection of New York's museum of Modern Art.

Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:38 am

^^
This is the kind of information I am seeking. Not too many classics can make that claim. Many thanks! Anything else?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:39 am

Well it's two outstanding features are right there in its name: it was designed by Italian automotive design firm Ghia (which was known for designing higher-end, sportier cars like Alfa Romeos, Fiats, even Ferraris) and manufactured by German coach builder Karmann. As opposed to the automated Henry-Ford-style assembly lines on which the Beetles were built, the Karmann Ghia was a monocoque (unibody, no detachable fenders) design that was built by hand by experienced craftspeople. All the separate parts of the Karmann Ghia body were welded together by hand, and seams were filled with a pewter body filler. This is a method that's typically reserved for higher-end cars as this method takes more time and as a result is more expensive. So the Karmann Ghia was VW's foray into this market. It was never fully imagined as a full-on sports car but was rather meant to be middle ground between the styling of a Porsche and the affordability of a Beetle.

As far as rarity, there were over 21 million Beetles produced but under 500,000 Karmann Ghias produced.

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:08 pm

Thanks!
On the subject of hand welding, I recall the body has about 11ft. of welded seams! Does this sound right?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:36 pm

kingkarmann wrote: Thanks!
On the subject of hand welding, I recall the body has about 11ft. of welded seams! Does this sound right?

I'm not sure of how much welding went into each one, but here's a transcribed brochure form 1969 (with some cool photos!) that goes into more detail about the production at Osnabrück: http://www.karmannghiaconnection.com/Construction.html

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:46 pm

As far as rarity is concerned, the Type I Karmann-Ghia is pretty common, with over 400,000 produced over 19 model years. However, what makes the car relatively unique is its combination of Italian-design (Carozzeria Ghia), German coachbuilt (Karmann) body, and pedestrian economy car mechanicals (VW Beetle). The longevity of the model without any major changes in design is also unique.

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:08 pm

The first few years (55-57), the panels were also hand hammered over wooden bucks in addition to the held welded and leaded seams. This puts the very early models at least into a whole different realm of coach built.

If you follow the model family lineage, the Karmann Ghia is currently represented in the US by the Porsches Boxster and Cayman. In other markets, it's also found as the Scirocco. It was marketed in the US as a Porsche model, and elsewhere variously as a VW/Porsche and just a VW in one or two markets as I recall. The Golf eventually replaced the Beetle, and a sportier Scirocco entered production in '74 to replace the Karmann Ghia within the markets it was made available. The model niche was originally sort of split between sportiness and economy, and when the line came to an end they must have found it easier to further differentiate the two aims into the less sporty but more economical Scirocco and the less economical but more sporty 914.

Another interesting tidbit, the early models (contemporary with the Porsche 356A) shared the majority of design elements with their upscale brethren which were still very heavily VW-based. The Porsche 356 notchbacks (which were essentially convertibles with the optional hardtop permanently welded in place) were built in the same facility. Porsche 911s shared a front suspension design and layout (parts were not necessarily interchangeable, and there were certainly differences, but a VW enthusiast would find themselves right at home at the business end of things) through the early 70s, and the rear suspension was all but identical to the later model Karmann Ghias in the same way through the early 90s. The engine to transmission bolt pattern was also the same between the 911s and VWs of all sorts all the way through the 993 generation. Also, it should be said, the early cars at least (the most true to the original Ghia design) were some of the most beautiful cars ever built; far prettier than their Porsche cousins, IMHO.

Finally, it's one of the very few classic cars that is very much an object of art and beauty but still incredibly practical and surprisingly inexpensive to own and operate on a daily basis. I DD mine (it's my sole means of transportation at the moment) and it is nicer, more fun, and less expensive than any new car I've ever owned.

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:12 pm

zombn8r wrote: the Karmann Ghia was a monocoque (unibody, no detachable fenders) design

Not quite - a monocoque body is one which incpororates the chassis elements to the body structure or substructure, e.g., a "unibody." The Karmann-Ghia is still a separate body on pan, like a Beetle, although its body is more a single, welded-together piece, rather than comprised of bolt-on fenders and such as a Beetle is. But it is not a monocoque.

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:29 pm

spectre6000 wrote: The first few years (55-57), the panels were also hand hammered over wooden bucks in addition to the held welded and leaded seams. This puts the very early models at least into a whole different realm of coach built.

No, the panels were stamped out of large die press machines, not hand-hammered on wooden bucks. Karmann actually had a more lucrative side-business in the 1960's-1980's, producing most of the sheet-metal stamping dies used throught the worldwide automaking industry! Only extremely low-production coachbuilding shops (Beutler, Ghia, Scaglietti, etc.) hand-hammered panels on wooden bucks... mostly in aluminum.

There was a great deal of hand-leading and hand-finish work that was lavished on each Karmann-Ghia, and if one studies the evolution of the earliest few thousand cars, one can notice little changes in the bodies which eliminated little hand-work steps and made the cars easier and faster to build.

spectre6000 wrote: If you follow the model family lineage, the Karmann Ghia is currently represented in the US by the Porsches Boxster and Cayman. In other markets, it's also found as the Scirocco. It was marketed in the US as a Porsche model, and elsewhere variously as a VW/Porsche and just a VW in one or two markets as I recall.

Not true; the Karmann-Ghia was only marketed worldwide as a Volkswagen. Never a Porsche. The only car ever marketed as a VW-Porsche in any market was the 914 (although there was a period of time in the 1960's, where VW and Porsche collaborated resources on some designs, namely the 914 and 924).

spectre6000 wrote: The Golf eventually replaced the Beetle, and a sportier Scirocco entered production in '74 to replace the Karmann Ghia within the markets it was made available. The model niche was originally sort of split between sportiness and economy, and when the line came to an end they must have found it easier to further differentiate the two aims into the less sporty but more economical Scirocco and the less economical but more sporty 914.

The Scirocco was its official replacement; repackaging the mass-market economy car underpinnings in a sportier suit. I would suggest that today's equivalent is the Audi TT. The current Scirocco is closer to the Golf in its styling.

spectre6000 wrote: Another interesting tidbit, the early models (contemporary with the Porsche 356A) shared the majority of design elements with their upscale brethren which were still very heavily VW-based. The Porsche 356 notchbacks (which were essentially convertibles with the optional hardtop permanently welded in place) were built in the same facility. Porsche 911s shared a front suspension design and layout (parts were not necessarily interchangeable, and there were certainly differences, but a VW enthusiast would find themselves right at home at the business end of things) through the early 70s, and the rear suspension was all but identical to the later model Karmann Ghias in the same way through the early 90s.

The 911's used MacPherson struts and lower A-arms as the main architecture of their front suspension... nothing like the Karmann-Ghia's torsion bars and trailing arms, sorry.

spectre6000 wrote: Also, it should be said, the early cars at least (the most true to the original Ghia design) were some of the most beautiful cars ever built; far prettier than their Porsche cousins, IMHO.

No argument there ;-)

spectre6000 wrote: Finally, it's one of the very few classic cars that is very much an object of art and beauty but still incredibly practical and surprisingly inexpensive to own and operate on a daily basis.

I think the beauty of the Karmann-Ghia was that it offered a beautiful, elegant, stylish and slightly sporty-looking body with completely reliable mechancals. Definitely a "have your cake and eat it too" situation of style plus down-to-earth substance. It signaled your friends and neighbors that you've arrived, or that you were a bit of a bon vivant, without losing your grip on reality. It was one of those rare consumer items which offered an unusually high ratio of beauty to cost, without sacrificing quality or reliability. How could one not fall in love with this little car?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:19 pm

spectre6000 wrote:
If you follow the model family lineage, the Karmann Ghia is currently represented in the US by the Porsches Boxster and Cayman.

I'd say the boxster and cayman are actually more closely descended from the 550 and the 914, all being mid engined cars.

spectre6000 wrote:
the less economical but more sporty 914.

My 914 gets roughly the same 30mpg that my Ghia gets.

spectre6000 wrote:
Porsche 911s shared a front suspension design and layout

911's had a completely different front suspension to Ghia's. 911 front suspension was similar to 914's and super beetles.

Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:01 am

Era Vulgaris wrote: spectre6000 wrote:
If you follow the model family lineage, the Karmann Ghia is currently represented in the US by the Porsches Boxster and Cayman.

I'd say the boxster and cayman are actually more closely descended from the 550 and the 914, all being mid engined cars.

spectre6000 wrote:
Yes, mid engined vs rear engined.
the less economical but more sporty 914.

My 914 gets roughly the same 30mpg that my Ghia gets.

spectre6000 wrote:

The 1.7L 914 get 35mpg easy while the 2.0L get 30 mpg!
Porsche 911s shared a front suspension design and layout

911's had a completely different front suspension to Ghia's. 911 front suspension was similar to 914's and super beetles.

911 suspension is the same as the 914 but has slightly different parts although it bolts right in if you want to change it over to a 911 one.

Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:16 am

Thanks you all so much for your terrific replies!
I will surely plagiarize the best of each 8)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:42 am

Bleyseng wrote:

911 suspension is the same as the 914 but has slightly different parts although it bolts right in if you want to change it over to a 911 one.

As is the case with my 914: complete 911 front suspension plus 911 calipers, master cylinder, vented rotors, and fuchs wheels. The thing handles like a slot car!

Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:31 am

retrowagen wrote: spectre6000 wrote: The first few years (55-57), the panels were also hand hammered over wooden bucks in addition to the held welded and leaded seams. This puts the very early models at least into a whole different realm of coach built.

No, the panels were stamped out of large die press machines, not hand-hammered on wooden bucks. Karmann actually had a more lucrative side-business in the 1960's-1980's, producing most of the sheet-metal stamping dies used throught the worldwide automaking industry! Only extremely low-production coachbuilding shops (Beutler, Ghia, Scaglietti, etc.) hand-hammered panels on wooden bucks... mostly in aluminum.

There was a great deal of hand-leading and hand-finish work that was lavished on each Karmann-Ghia, and if one studies the evolution of the earliest few thousand cars, one can notice little changes in the bodies which eliminated little hand-work steps and made the cars easier and faster to build.

I got that from a book here somewhere. The book could be wrong and/or I could be misremembering. Your information sounds more accurate.

retrowagen wrote: spectre6000 wrote: If you follow the model family lineage, the Karmann Ghia is currently represented in the US by the Porsches Boxster and Cayman. In other markets, it's also found as the Scirocco. It was marketed in the US as a Porsche model, and elsewhere variously as a VW/Porsche and just a VW in one or two markets as I recall.

Not true; the Karmann-Ghia was only marketed worldwide as a Volkswagen. Never a Porsche. The only car ever marketed as a VW-Porsche in any market was the 914 (although there was a period of time in the 1960's, where VW and Porsche collaborated resources on some designs, namely the 914 and 924).

I didn't proofread that very well. I have a frequent tendency to write long parenthetical asides and edit multiple times before finally posting. I was intending to refer to the 914 as the Porsche/VW marketing co-op, not the Karmann Ghia itself.

retrowagen wrote: spectre6000 wrote: The Golf eventually replaced the Beetle, and a sportier Scirocco entered production in '74 to replace the Karmann Ghia within the markets it was made available. The model niche was originally sort of split between sportiness and economy, and when the line came to an end they must have found it easier to further differentiate the two aims into the less sporty but more economical Scirocco and the less economical but more sporty 914.

The Scirocco was its official replacement; repackaging the mass-market economy car underpinnings in a sportier suit. I would suggest that today's equivalent is the Audi TT. The current Scirocco is closer to the Golf in its styling.

Yes, on the VW side. It was stated many times in many sources that VWs involvement in the 914 was to replace the Karmann Ghia as the sporty model in the lineup. The Scirocco is kind of sporty, and represents a sort of split of that niche into a high and low range for additional economy/practicality (real or perceived, mostly perceived in the economy sense as pointed out elsewhere)/sportiness. I'm not super familiar with the Audi TT's heritage, and it's entirely possible it fills the same niche, but evolutionarily speaking the family tree branches into the 914 and Scirocco.

retrowagen wrote: spectre6000 wrote: Another interesting tidbit, the early models (contemporary with the Porsche 356A) shared the majority of design elements with their upscale brethren which were still very heavily VW-based. The Porsche 356 notchbacks (which were essentially convertibles with the optional hardtop permanently welded in place) were built in the same facility. Porsche 911s shared a front suspension design and layout (parts were not necessarily interchangeable, and there were certainly differences, but a VW enthusiast would find themselves right at home at the business end of things) through the early 70s, and the rear suspension was all but identical to the later model Karmann Ghias in the same way through the early 90s.

The 911's used MacPherson struts and lower A-arms as the main architecture of their front suspension... nothing like the Karmann-Ghia's torsion bars and trailing arms, sorry.

Yup. I was totally wrong there. Don't know what I was thinking. There was definitely some major component/system was the same on the 911s through 73/74 timeframe in addition to the rear suspension setup. What was I thinking of? The 356 was the same front suspension setup through 65 for sure...