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Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:36 pm

Hey folks, I was wondering if anyone would be able to clarify something for me around front suspension beam versions/compatibility.

KiwiGhia68 (Emiko's owner) and I have met up to compare notes and check out each others projects and have found a few opportunities to help each other out (important in this remote part of the world)
One of these opportunities is that I have a 61 Ghia with king pin suspension and drums and I want ball joints and discs and he has a 68 with ball joints and discs and he needs a new beam as his beam is rotted out.

So the question is, are the front beams the same design on both cars, (ball joints vs king pins) ie can I take the discs, ball joints and arms etc off his beam and put them on my king pin beam? Then buy a complete Beetle beam and brakes between us which he can fit on his car to replace his rusty beam, or another combination where we both end up with sound beams, ball joint suspension and disc brakes?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:51 pm

The beams themselves are not interchangeable. You would have to swap frame heads. The spacing is different, and I want to say the diameter of the tubes are different as well, but I've had a few glasses of wine while cooking dinner and can't remember. Swapping the arms will be dependent on whether or not the tubes are the same diameter. Regardless, you can get a new beam and all the ancillary parts on the aftermarket fairly easily. I know shipping down there isn't likely to be super favorable, but it can be done. CB Performance is where I tend to get aftermarket things of that nature. Airkeweld is good if you want extreme stuff.

Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:34 pm

You need to change the front of the tunnel to the new mounts. If you know a good welder it is not that bad of a project. Look in the Technical section in the body manuals and there is instructions on how to weld on a new head. That being said I doubt it is worth the effort.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:19 am

Thanks for the responses, just to double check is it the 61 Ghia - 68 Ghia beam swap that won't work or the beetle to Ghia swap? Just looking at some photos of the 2 Ghia beams I can see differences around the shock towers and Cip1 etc list different beams for different years but don't get into compatibility of complete units.

I assume the king pin to ball joint arm swap between the Ghia beams won't work either :(

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:33 am

You can't put a KP front end on a chassis with BP and vica versa (BJ front end on a chassis with KP). As already said you would have to cut and replace the frame head to match the front end with the chassis. A fair amount of work.

You can, however, get a BJ Beetle front end and put it straight on your BJ front end Karmann Ghia. I have been told that the only difference is the location of the steering box. Again, I have been told this (but have never checked, and like Spectre have had a few good reds after dinner), so I am prepared to be corrected, that the factory had alignment marks on the steering box or front end - one for Beetle & one for KG. When switching from one to the other you align the steering box to the relevant mark.

I am counting on this when I attempt converting a 1969 KG to RHD using a Beetle RHD front end.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:47 am

TheFop wrote: Thanks for the responses, just to double check is it the 61 Ghia - 68 Ghia beam swap that won't work or the beetle to Ghia swap?
Like year/style (i.e., king pin ['65 and earlier] or ball joint ['66 and later]) beetle and ghia front beams are identical. The steering box is the same, but it mounts differently due to the different steering column angle. 1967 and later ghias did get different spindles for front disc brakes, but the beams are identical to like year beetles.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:44 am

Great stuff, thanks all for the clarifications, looks like I'm out of luck but the Kiwighias 68 beam replacement should be good to go.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:36 am

TheFop wrote: Great stuff, thanks all for the clarifications, looks like I'm out of luck but the Kiwighias 68 beam replacement should be good to go.

Not so fast, Dean! I now have to decide whether I'm going to buy the complete front end (with disc brakes etc) or just the beam. What I would like to know is this: Would I be able to transfer the necessary components of the front wheel assembly with its disc brakes (on the old beam) to the rear so that I'll have disc brakes all round?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:50 am

kiwighia68 wrote: TheFop wrote: Great stuff, thanks all for the clarifications, looks like I'm out of luck but the Kiwighias 68 beam replacement should be good to go.

Not so fast, Dean! I now have to decide whether I'm going to buy the complete front end (with disc brakes etc) or just the beam. What I would like to know is this: Would I be able to transfer the necessary components of the front wheel assembly with its disc brakes (on the old beam) to the rear so that I'll have disc brakes all round?
No. Your front discs won't transfer to the rear. You will need to go after-market for rear discs, which will need a park brake mechanism. Just buy a new ball joint front beam and transfer your existing front end components to that beam. I would just keep the rear drums unless you are planning a short-axle swap in the rear to get more tire clearance for your '68 (long-axle) ghia. In that case, you'd need to mill some material off your existing drum snouts or switch to rear discs.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:02 pm

sactojesse wrote: kiwighia68 wrote: TheFop wrote: Great stuff, thanks all for the clarifications, looks like I'm out of luck but the Kiwighias 68 beam replacement should be good to go.

Not so fast, Dean! I now have to decide whether I'm going to buy the complete front end (with disc brakes etc) or just the beam. What I would like to know is this: Would I be able to transfer the necessary components of the front wheel assembly with its disc brakes (on the old beam) to the rear so that I'll have disc brakes all round?
No. Your front discs won't transfer to the rear. You will need to go after-market for rear discs, which will need a park brake mechanism. Just buy a new ball joint front beam and transfer your existing front end components to that beam. I would just keep the rear drums unless you are planning a short-axle swap in the rear to get more tire clearance for your '68 (long-axle) ghia. In that case, you'd need to mill some material off your existing drum snouts or switch to rear discs.

Thanks for that: I think you're right. It would save some money and should also keep my car original. And it looks like something I could do myself.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:54 pm

No drinks in me now.

Ghia/Beetle are completely interchangeable. BJ/LP are not. The framehead where they attach is different. Replacing the framehead is doable, and not super difficult if you're already messing around with that sort of thing, but it's not even comparable to just swapping beams. The steering box doesn't move insofar as I'm aware (though there could be potential differences when an early enough front axle lacks provisions for a steering damper), it's all in the spacing of the tubes and the location of the shocks (you can't just swap trailing arms either like I errantly said above... wine).

Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:46 pm

There is a difference in the mounting of the steering box between a Bug & a Ghia. It doesn't seem like much, though. Check out the second post in this thread:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=509282&highlight=steering+box

In fact, the entire thread may be of some use to you, Kiwighia.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:54 pm

mlhsquared wrote: There is a difference in the mounting of the steering box between a Bug & a Ghia. It doesn't seem like much, though. Check out the second post in this thread:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=509282&highlight=steering+box

In fact, the entire thread may be of some use to you, Kiwighia.

Thanks. That helps a lot.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:04 pm

The steering box angle is diff from beetle...but you almost cant mess it up. If you set up Beetle style you wont be able to get the steering shaft flush to ragjoint (coupler)or connect the two. If you narrow your beam more than 2 in (i think 2 in. for sure at 3 inches) then you end up removing the indent on the beam to set the steering. Push the shaft thru to fit flush to the ragjoint, rotate shaft to make sure no interference, snug down the steering. Done.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:01 pm

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I spent the day removing my components to that I can transfer them to the new beam. I'm stuck at the point where I have to get the upper and lower ball-joints off. (Or are those things the spindles everyone's talking about?) How the heck do I get those things off the upper and lower beams - at the right end in the photo)? A beer or two later and I'm none the wiser.

Here's the reason for all this:

A rusted through front beam. I'll be picking up a used one off a Beetle tomorrow.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:50 pm

If you're talking about how the torsion connects to the beam, there's a 19mm nut that you'll have to remove so that you can loosen the 8mm allen-head bolt. Once you've done that, you can easily pry the torsion arm off of the beam.

[not my pic][source]

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:02 pm

cagey.jg wrote: If you're talking about how the torsion connects to the beam, there's a 19mm nut that you'll have to remove so that you can loosen the 8mm allen-head bolt. Once you've done that, you can easily pry the torsion arm off of the beam.

You're right and that's exactly what it looks like. There's so much gunk on the beam that I didn't see the allen-bolt hole. Thanks.

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:40 pm

FWIW, I'd be happy to fix/weld the rust in that beam that is pictured. I've seen worse!

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:49 pm

VWCOOL wrote: FWIW, I'd be happy to fix/weld the rust in that beam that is pictured. I've seen worse!

I hope you won't mind if I take a second opinion on that (from the members who have followed this thread so far).

EDIT: And you won't believe the cost of getting anything done down here. I think I'd be better off taking welding lessons and buying my own rig.

Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:51 am

That rust is not in a 'structural' area such as the frame-head. There is plenty of strength remaining from the shock tower upright that is 'full circle' around the lower tube...

Weld it, bro!