TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1500cc 100-120hp recipe.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:13 pm

I currently planning my budget for a future build that is going to be a historic endurance racing engine. What I do know for sure at this point is that it has to be 1500cc with 69mm stroke. I am planning on either buying a complete 1500 engine and use that case and whatever parts are good or buy a new 1600 case and use 1500cc 83mm pistons & barrels.

Think of it like this. We are living in the 1950s and we are only allowed to use vw/porsche type 1 parts of the period. So no H-beam connectiong rods, CNC ported mega heads etc...

The target is no less than 100hp and not over 120hp.
My budget is 3000$

I might have missed something. Feel free to ask and to contribute if you have a good recipe

:)

Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:36 pm

What you have missed is your budget by about 2000.Too get some serious hp out of 1500 with vintage good parts and some really good machining/ knowlege will cost some cake unless you are willing and capable yourself.I hope you can succeed just being real here.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:37 pm

Could you use Dual port heads? (Perhaps 1300 Dual Port Heads) Samba Post on them and these carbs? Zenith NiDX 32
As I recall the Porsche 1500S Engine was close to that kind of power! Found this link about them http://www.willhoitautorestoration.com/1500_super.php

Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:59 pm

Danwvw wrote: Could you use Dual port heads? (Perhaps 1300 Dual Port Heads) Samba Post on them and these carbs? Zenith NiDX 32
As I recall the Porsche 1500S Engine was close to that kind of power! Found this link about them http://www.willhoitautorestoration.com/1500_super.php

Dual port heads and 2x webers idf40 or similar setup. Maybe I was thinking a little to much "flintstones" when I said 50s parts only. What I meant is that I want to use as much vw original parts as possible, where it is possible, and achive 100-120hp.

I was thinking something like this:
Forged counterweighted crank
Lightened flywheel
Stock rods
044 heads (vw original specification?) Do they fit 83mm pistons & barrels?
1.25:1 rockers
Dual port intake with idf 40s

As for the camshaft I have no clue yet. Being built for durability I would say that max revving would be restricted to 6500rpms?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:02 pm

More importantly, can you use a close ratio gearbox. For your application you want to build an engine that will live at high revs.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:25 pm

Sounds like fun. If you're limited to 1500ccs, then the story of this engine will be, HEADS, CAM! HEADS, CAM! HEADS, CAM! No bottotm end-y cams are going to work. You need to talk to a head porter to custom make you some heads that fill your HP demands. To make 100-120 HP, your going to be revving around 7000 RPM. Make sure your crank is counterweighted DPR can do yours for around $200. Your heads will set you back at least $700. Brothers VW and Steve Tims still hand ports heads. Your cam is going to cost about $100. 1.4 rockers have been available for decades. A cam combo using 1.4s will have better bottom end power than a 1.1 cam, usually. Maybe one of the FK40 series cams will be best. You'll want to drop $150-200 into a good hone job and good rings.

I think $3000 is do-able because you don't have to do too much case machining and your pistons can be re-used. Just think economical and don't drop half of your budget on new parts right out the gate.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:31 pm

It can be done for sure, 3K just don't cut any corners. Agree with the heads and cam. Breath baby breath.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:47 pm

Quokka42 wrote: More importantly, can you use a close ratio gearbox. For your application you want to build an engine that will live at high revs.

If im not mistaken but doesnt the type 1 already have close ratio from factory? 4.1x and such? that will keep it revving I think

Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:52 pm

bugguy1967 wrote: Sounds like fun. If you're limited to 1500ccs, then the story of this engine will be, HEADS, CAM! HEADS, CAM! HEADS, CAM! No bottotm end-y cams are going to work. You need to talk to a head porter to custom make you some heads that fill your HP demands. To make 100-120 HP, your going to be revving around 7000 RPM. Make sure your crank is counterweighted DPR can do yours for around $200. Your heads will set you back at least $700. Brothers VW and Steve Tims still hand ports heads. Your cam is going to cost about $100. 1.4 rockers have been available for decades. A cam combo using 1.4s will have better bottom end power than a 1.1 cam, usually. Maybe one of the FK40 series cams will be best. You'll want to drop $150-200 into a good hone job and good rings.

I think $3000 is do-able because you don't have to do too much case machining and your pistons can be re-used. Just think economical and don't drop half of your budget on new parts right out the gate.

Should I even think of using old heads? wont they crack at high revs?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:29 am

If you can properly assemble your own engine 100hp is completely do-able for $3000. As said you need good flowing heads & they + carbs will be your 2 biggest cash outlays. You don't need big or exotic heads but you do need heads that have been properly ported & detailed by someone who understands the parameters of the build. Heads & carbs will run around $1200. Properly matched header (size) & cam another $300. Again you could spend more but there's no reason to buy expensive/exotic parts here. So far that's half the budget.

Don't know what parts you have already but there are tons of used stock 15-1600 cranks out there & lots of 1500 pistons as well. If you are resourceful (know what your looking at) you could select the "pick of the litter" on these parts & have them balanced, along w/ the crank & flywheel (8-doweled), pressure plate, & pulley. For longer engine (case) life a counterweighted crank would be a good addition, but not necessary here because i don't think you need to go much past 5500 rpm to do what you want.

Cam selection will be important & you will need to do some more homework there to try to achive the optimal results. CB performance does some split duration cams (as does Web) & i would look at something like that with CBs lightweight lifters. Use heavy duty aluminum pushrods to minimize weight & lightweight wristpins (CB Perf.) wouldn't be a bad idea either if the budget allows.

Alstrup has posted on page 5 in the Engine combos sticky at the top of this forum, about his simularly built 1600 that makes 110hp (without revving it to the moon). A stock 1500 makes just a few Hp shy of a stock 1600 so there's no reason why a simularly built (to Alstrup's 1600) 1500 wouldn't do 100hp.

IMO super high rpm is beneficial for drag racing but not necessarily endurance racing. The air-cooled VW's original design had max & cruising speed specified as the same. I realize there are a lot of people who think you can't do a sustained 80(+)mph in a VW, but ive done that (& more) many times, including multiple hour highway runs. The engines lasted too, not short term grenades. Up the breathing capability of your 1500 (heads,cam, carbs & exhaust) to the 5500 rpm range & on 25" tires with a 4.12 R&P/ .89 4th gear trans you'll be going over 110mph at 5500rpm. How fast are you intent on going?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:28 am

maybe a 64mm stroke counterweighted crank and wider bore for 1500cc? That way you can get larger valves - I don't think 044s will fit over a 83mm bore. I have standard rods at 7000rpm swinging under 94s so they should be OK for you

Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:42 am

its just 100-120hp

i think theres a few in the "engine build/combo" sticky

that would do the job...

there's a 11o+ hp 1600dp there by Alstrup
that has alot of simple parts without going too exotic

seeing you're dealing with a 1500cc

taking it a step higher would prolly churn similar numbers,

web163 cam
or
web110 (bigger than an engle w120) that has the running dur.
of an engle w110 ,

or go split web 110/163 ,

some nice 35.5x32 well ported heads
you'd need port velocity on this one
so it could let you run a slightly "hotter" cam (like i mention above)
without killing low end torque, yet getting your cake and eating it at the top end :)

i know its always "heads + cams and more heads and compression"

but frankly, most if not all the heads available ported are too big for 1600cc, so "heads" is quite relative.. gonna be a dog putting a mini wedge 044 on a 1500 LOL

so focus on airspeed (intake ports) and u can run some cam..

versus doing the common.. "lazy" port + tiny cam"

Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:03 am

A de-stroked engine can be great for this kind of application if the rules allow it, but would need either longer rods or shortened cylinders.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:14 am

KIDSPEED wrote: If you can properly assemble your own engine 100hp is completely do-able for $3000. As said you need good flowing heads & they + carbs will be your 2 biggest cash outlays. You don't need big or exotic heads but you do need heads that have been properly ported & detailed by someone who understands the parameters of the build. Heads & carbs will run around $1200. Properly matched header (size) & cam another $300. Again you could spend more but there's no reason to buy expensive/exotic parts here. So far that's half the budget.

Don't know what parts you have already but there are tons of used stock 15-1600 cranks out there & lots of 1500 pistons as well. If you are resourceful (know what your looking at) you could select the "pick of the litter" on these parts & have them balanced, along w/ the crank & flywheel (8-doweled), pressure plate, & pulley. For longer engine (case) life a counterweighted crank would be a good addition, but not necessary here because i don't think you need to go much past 5500 rpm to do what you want.

Cam selection will be important & you will need to do some more homework there to try to achive the optimal results. CB performance does some split duration cams (as does Web) & i would look at something like that with CBs lightweight lifters. Use heavy duty aluminum pushrods to minimize weight & lightweight wristpins (CB Perf.) wouldn't be a bad idea either if the budget allows.

Alstrup has posted on page 5 in the Engine combos sticky at the top of this forum, about his simularly built 1600 that makes 110hp (without revving it to the moon). A stock 1500 makes just a few Hp shy of a stock 1600 so there's no reason why a simularly built (to Alstrup's 1600) 1500 wouldn't do 100hp.

IMO super high rpm is beneficial for drag racing but not necessarily endurance racing. The air-cooled VW's original design had max & cruising speed specified as the same. I realize there are a lot of people who think you can't do a sustained 80(+)mph in a VW, but ive done that (& more) many times, including multiple hour highway runs. The engines lasted too, not short term grenades. Up the breathing capability of your 1500 (heads,cam, carbs & exhaust) to the 5500 rpm range & on 25" tires with a 4.12 R&P/ .89 4th gear trans you'll be going over 110mph at 5500rpm. How fast are you intent on going?

Good info there. Well 120mph at tops. I´ll look alstrups setup!

Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:46 am

VWCOOL wrote: maybe a 64mm stroke counterweighted crank and wider bore for 1500cc? That way you can get larger valves - I don't think 044s will fit over a 83mm bore. I have standard rods at 7000rpm swinging under 94s so they should be OK for you

I dont think I want to mess around with the stroke. Initiallly I want to go with 69mm. I havent obtained any parts yet.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:52 am

Hello.
No need for fancy destrokers to pull 120 hp from a 1500. :wink:

Some time ago I made a set of heads for a Swiss guy that uses his car for historic Rally. It also had to be1500 cc to stay within the rules. He uses Italian 36 mm IDF´s as per rule book, which I detailed a little to make the airflow better in them.

Stock balanced crank, flywheel lightened 1,6 Kg. Stock rods lightened about 50 grams and balanced. Pistons are Italian Vertex lightweight copies of the 1500S pistons. (With a dome) Dual port 1300 heads modified to the 1500 bore. (Left me better option for shaping the chamber as I wanted it) 9,8 CR.
2 step merge header 1 3/8 to 1½" and a split dur. split lift camshaft that was chosen directly after the head flow characteristics, to get maximum torque band along with good power.

He pulls 65 hp @ 4000, 112 hp @ 6250 rpm and 108 @ 6900 (red line) Peak torque is 138 nm @ 5700 but it has more than 115 Nm available from 3700 to 6700 rpm. Very nice.

110 hp wohnt make you do 120 mph. Far from it. 110 hp in a beetle will make a top speed at about 110-112 mph. if the gearing is fairly right.

So the only things remotely fancy in this engine is the cam and pistons.

With 40 Idf´s 120 hp is relatively easy obtainable with a little planning.

T

Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:55 pm

well cost depends on what you have to start with.for me I would start off with the 356/912 motor for real vintage.(912 better ports&crabs)but of cc is the only thing a type 1 1500 would do... but I dont think of them as vintage.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:32 pm

The 356's did have a much stronger case than the type 1 VW. Finding one without paying an arm and a leg that would be the trick.

The only 1500's that made 100 hp Stock for sale to the public were the 4 cam engines though! Like the Porsche Carrera 1500 GS at 1498cc Model 547/1 something like 85mm pistons and 66 mm stroke. 48mm intake and 41mm exhaust valves!
1955 Porsche 356 A 1500 GS Carrera Speedster
1956 Porsche 356A/1500GS Carrera Coupé.
Saw somewhere there is a aftermarket kit for building one of the 4 cam engines now. Here: Capicorn Group.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm

Widowmaker wrote: VWCOOL wrote: maybe a 64mm stroke counterweighted crank and wider bore for 1500cc? That way you can get larger valves - I don't think 044s will fit over a 83mm bore. I have standard rods at 7000rpm swinging under 94s so they should be OK for you

I dont think I want to mess around with the stroke. Initiallly I want to go with 69mm. I havent obtained any parts yet.

That's cool - earlier VWs had a 64mm stroke so it's not actually 'messing' around but I am not sure of case/crank compatibility. Just an idea...

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:32 pm

KIDSPEED wrote: If you can properly assemble your own engine 100hp is completely do-able for $3000. As said you need good flowing heads & they + carbs will be your 2 biggest cash outlays. You don't need big or exotic heads but you do need heads that have been properly ported & detailed by someone who understands the parameters of the build. Heads & carbs will run around $1200. Properly matched header (size) & cam another $300. Again you could spend more but there's no reason to buy expensive/exotic parts here. So far that's half the budget.

Don't know what parts you have already but there are tons of used stock 15-1600 cranks out there & lots of 1500 pistons as well. If you are resourceful (know what your looking at) you could select the "pick of the litter" on these parts & have them balanced, along w/ the crank & flywheel (8-doweled), pressure plate, & pulley. For longer engine (case) life a counterweighted crank would be a good addition, but not necessary here because i don't think you need to go much past 5500 rpm to do what you want.

Cam selection will be important & you will need to do some more homework there to try to achive the optimal results. CB performance does some split duration cams (as does Web) & i would look at something like that with CBs lightweight lifters. Use heavy duty aluminum pushrods to minimize weight & lightweight wristpins (CB Perf.) wouldn't be a bad idea either if the budget allows.

Alstrup has posted on page 5 in the Engine combos sticky at the top of this forum, about his simularly built 1600 that makes 110hp (without revving it to the moon). A stock 1500 makes just a few Hp shy of a stock 1600 so there's no reason why a simularly built (to Alstrup's 1600) 1500 wouldn't do 100hp.

IMO super high rpm is beneficial for drag racing but not necessarily endurance racing. The air-cooled VW's original design had max & cruising speed specified as the same. I realize there are a lot of people who think you can't do a sustained 80(+)mph in a VW, but ive done that (& more) many times, including multiple hour highway runs. The engines lasted too, not short term grenades. Up the breathing capability of your 1500 (heads,cam, carbs & exhaust) to the 5500 rpm range & on 25" tires with a 4.12 R&P/ .89 4th gear trans you'll be going over 110mph at 5500rpm. How fast are you intent on going?

Heads and carbs for $1200?!! That''s what I mean by throwing cash at this right away. Ported stock valved heads should cost no more than $700. Rebuild some Dells or Weber 36/40s for $300. A 1 3/8 to 1 1/2 step header sounds awesome, but a straight up 1 1/2 would be fine and costs under $100.