TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:59 pm

While I have my trailing arms out and at the powder coaters I would like to protect the wheel wells and frame at the back. I have power washed the area, the wheel wells are partially coated with some black material, it is not uniform though. I have no rust. I will post some pictures. Any advice on the best product that I am capable of applying would be appreciated.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:42 pm

I did search and read Insyncro's posts on the Corter van project, using this product: http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-rubberized-rust-encapsulator-undercoating-black.html
Though he states he is using a rust encapsulator, as well as a top coat before applying the undercoat.
Here are the pics:

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:16 pm

Waxoyl products. Use the hardwax underbody for producto for the exterior. Panel wax for the inner bits. Comes in handy aerosol cans or liquid form.
Rovers North
http://landroverparts.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=RNW5006

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:18 pm

Ok,
First off thanks for checking out my work on the Corter van and that thread will be updated, but after the van has been delivered to the client as I can not devote the time organize the photos and write detailed explainations during my busy time.

Secondly, Eastwood will be one of the more cost effective vendors and the products are good.
My failure with the linked product above, spurred a new product to be release:

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-textured-rust-encapsulator-black-aerosol-15oz.html

I am not taking any credit for this new product, but with lengthy discussions with the tech dept at Eastwwod, viola, new product.
I am not saying they are the same product either.
I have not tried the textured encapsulator yet and may not as I am investing in full blown industrial powder coating equipment for further development of the restoration process.

My top products that get two thumbs up for ease of application, availability in a rattle can and duration of service:

Eastwood Heavy Duty Anti Rust
Eastwood Inner Cavity Protective Spray with Zinc

All Noxudol products.
Some are ECO friendly and will be a focus of mine in the near future.

WurthUSA under chassis protection sprays and cavity waxes.

I will have to disagree with the OPs statement of "no rust".
It is clearly visable in the seams and on the lower quarter section of the chassis.
If rust can be seen on the exterior, it is most certainly inside the chassis as it starts from inside and works its way out.
This is the way the unibody construction breaks down.

Complete underchassis encapsulation before any undercoating is what I would recommend if van owners would like the longest duration of protection.
Yes, this is a lengthy, dirty and costly venture, and my opinion is, best done by professionals with the proper safety equipment and spray equipment for the job.

With all due respect to all here on the Samba, I do not have time to bicker over products, procedures and most importantly cost.
With that said, I want to help, but many feel the need to comment in threads I participate in to create havoc and derail the flow of the content.

All of my 15+ years of Vanagon experience will be detailed off site via my personal sites, feeds, blogs and social media in the future.
Most are locked or in limbo at this point, but thanks for all the requests I get to subscribe to them.
Time is what I need to bring them all back online.

At a minimum, please wear a mask while using any of the products I have recommended and allow them to dry and than cure before moving to the next layer.

Thanks for riding along and I wish everyone happy trails and camping in there beloved vans.

edited for spell :wink:

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:20 pm

If you are looking for one and only one product that will help keep every inch of your van protected....

Fluid Film is the answer.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:35 pm

Thanks for the link, I do plan on treating with cavity wax, the reason I was asking about the rubberized undercoating was for it's claims as a sound deadner. An attractive idea for road and tire noise elimination. I plan on hitting the undersides of the floor pan area as well. I am having all the rear suspension and brake parts (backing plate and drum) powder coated. I was planning on doing all of the front suspension pieces myself. I have a blast cabinet and am hoping for advice on products for those pieces as well. What primer and epoxy would be best. Insyncro is using red lead and Eastwood black chassis paint. But he is not taking the pieces to bare metal.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:42 pm

The answer to the question of what products to use is answered by, which products work best together.
Read all MSDS documents very carefully and do test sprays to verify that one product is not an antagonist and will compromise the others.
The solvents used to thin and reduce the products in rattle cans are the really issue, hence my reference to professionals with professional equipment.

Red Lead?
It is Wurth red oxide rust encapsulator.

Chassis Saver Black is a Magnet Paint product.

The Gloss Black top coats shown are Eastwood Extreme products.

POR15 has also been used on the Corter van.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:05 pm

Stay away from eastwood.

I had horrible experiences with their Rust converter and rust encapsulator products" they kept selling that junk even after numerous complaints of the stuff causing rust under the paint.
i currently have a kit car with the interior floors rusting away becuase of eastwoods product, i had to totally strip (ie bead blast ) the underside of a 356 that was done up in Eastwood junk. I talked with their tech guys, they admitted a problem, yet the stuff was sold for a long time after that, on sale even!

The Eastwood brand rust converter creates rust, i did controled experiments on the stuff after the fact, it creates rust, it has an acid in it that rusts the metal when ever the stuff is moist, and the stuff sucks water right out of the air, hence it must be top coated with a vapour proof top coat, however while it is drying, before the top coat can be applied, it is already rusting the metal! funny how the instructions say to top coat it right away, to bad you cant top coat it wet, that would just seal in the moisture, and make it worse. let it dry and the rust already is started.

oh, even if you could eliminate all the moisture and top coat it, all sealed up, just one scratch in the top coat and moisture reacts with the dried converter and viola, rust starts again. this just is not a light surface rust, the acid that is reactivated when ever moisture is present makes a very agressive rust, deep pitting , heavy red rust, like a salt water bath on steriods. The rust creeps all over under the piant. horrible junk

Eastwwod even had numerous complaints on their own website about this. it didn't take rocket surgury to figure out what was going on.

For a rust converter try SEM's Rust Mort that is good stuff, the pro's use it too, it works. SEM Rust seal is also good, and does not require a top coat.

Next was their horrible rust encapsulator, boy that stuff never cured.

Eastwood's high temp exhaust mainfold paint burned right of my manifold, looks like crap. I would have been far better off with the cheaper cost Rustoleum high temp BBQ paint that I know works. My results scream that Eastwood has no quality control, no product testing.

All I got out of eastwood was a very late offer for $100 off my next purchase. this was insulting. Thier junk products cuased me thousands in damages and they didn't give a rip, the $100 didn't even cover the cost of the junk products I bought from them, and they knew this stuff was bad.

Stay away form eastwood, unless you like really cheap red commie made tools. Their chemistry and paint department is amature at best, criminal possibly for selling the stuff they knew was bad. they had no product testing, they were making it up as they went.

Instead buy all your paint products from a real paint company that has invested $100's of millions in research and testing, not some company that sells toxic waste as paint.

PPG, 3M, Glaserit, SEM etc... are name brands that have the best products, you can buy this stuff at good autobody supply stores, and get good advice on their application from the same store.

For the rubberized undercaoting i have had good results with Wurth brand sprayable undercoating both in spray cans, and in sprayable with gun form.
it is a water clean up product in gun spray form, and is tough and good looking, it is very popular with the 356 restorers, who are known to pick good products on their restorations.

other good choices are name brand spray cans available at autoparts stores, test before you use it, as some are paintable, some have better build qualities than others, some stay tacky like a tar, others are rubberized and dry yet remain flexable.

Just dont trust Eastwood for chemicals at all, they buy junk paint from a unknown source, likely have one or two part time chemists if any employeed and hava very limited Ra dn D budget for testing. they simply repackage the cheapest chemistry and mass sell it thru mail order to unsuspecting home mechanics who likely dont know better.

Buy real chemicals form the big guys the same guys who sell to OEM's, sell to quality minded restoration shops, etc... They have the money to back up real research into good products, they do extensive product testing, spend $millions on it, and they buy top quality raw materials and blend the paints themselves, they have extensive patents awarded, and huge teams of Phd scientists working on the chemistry.

Eastwood is simply a discount tool supplier that does mail order. they sell to the home mechanic, they sell the cheap stuff, ok for home use, but for the most part not professional grade, They are simply a reseller, and importer of cheap stuff, they have a nice pretty catalog, but all they do is resell cheap stuff. mostly stuff from overseas.

i am sure they buy 55 gallon drums of the cheapest paint they can buy, and have an operation where they dispense that drums contents into little quart cans, slap the eastwood lable on it, and resell it for a 30x mark-up.

dont waste your valuable efforts using an inferior product just cause it is cheap, buy the better stuff, the stuff that will work, the stuff the professionals use, the stuff the the OEM's use.

their much harolded Eastwood Chassis Black is a paint that is so hard it chips easy, and it dont adhere well, that is my experience, it is also pretty pricey in the spray cans, your better off with Rustoleum or Krylon spray paint, the brush on stuff is no better.
a great primer is Duponts DP primer, it is an epoxy two part primer, sets up fast for next day top coat, is tough and adheres very well . this is a superior product to anything that eastwood offers, see your local autobody supply store for this product. it comes in different colors, black being one of them

Eastwoods response to this disaster was very telling, the $100 offer didn't near cover the loss, plus the $100 turned out to be a discount on a future order, ugh....

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:36 pm

Thank you for taking the time to compose such a lengthy review of your experiences with these products. I was hoping to avoid a tar based product, have used them before and did not like them. I realize that they may provide better protection, but I plan to inspect often and patch if neccesary.
In reference to my post indicating no rust, I should have said very little rust. In comparison to some of the things I have seen on here. The seam rust I ignored as it will be addressed by the professional that is doing the exterior body work and painting the entire van.
I have a quart of rustoleum converter. Should I treat the rails and paint them then encapsulate them with undercoating? The wells themselves can have the undercoating applied directly? I am trying to avoid doing this just to have it slough off do to a lack of prep.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:54 pm

I highly recommend addressing any and all rust issues before applying a product that wicks into seams and beyond.
You are going to create more adhesion issues for the bodysmith and cost you more money in the long run for them to rid the areas of these products.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:00 pm

Many here feel Harbor Freight is where to buy tools...much cheaper than Eastwood :lol:

Seriously, prep, prep, prep....that's what makes the biggest difference.

If budget constraints limit product purchasing, I would save for the best products if the vehicle is a keeper.

I would also like to point out that the Corter project has a 5 year goal in mind and that is why more cost effective products are being used.
All of the Syncro driveline will be swapped to a pristine 2wd down the road.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:00 pm

insyncro wrote: I highly recommend addressing any and all rust issues before applying a product that wicks into seams and beyond.
You are going to create more adhesion issues for the bodysmith and cost you more money in the long run for them to rid the areas of these products.
That is excellent advice, I have purchased some fluid film, but had noted from other posts here that it gave body shops and painters fits and have not used it yet. I am focusing on the well wells first, the suspension in the front afterwards. With the variety of products available and zero experience in this endeavor it can be confusing. What chemical should I use to prep the wheel wells for a rubberized undercoating?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:02 pm

Fluid Film is one of the most difficult products to remove that I have come across and that is why I love using it...BUT after bodywork!

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:08 pm

greebly wrote: With the variety of products available and zero experience in this endeavor it can be confusing. What chemical should I use to prep the wheel wells for a rubberized undercoating?

We are now on the path that I described in one of my first posts.
I have no clue as to how much prep or attention to detail was used with the unsatisfactory Eastwood experience listed above.

If you are ready to drop some serious coin, contact your local Wurth Rep, set up an account and have them detail what products are best suited for your endeavor.

Now if I say anything Eastwood, we will just get rolling eyes.

Good luck with your project.
This has been the best I have to offer.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:21 pm

I appreciate anyone that goes a different route, I also appreciate good advice and subjective critique. Bluebus86's problems with Eastwood indicate to me that their products being less expensive may require additional process. I have purchased products in the past that had rotten reviews, properly cautioned I was careful in how I utilized them or the application I applied them to with success. I am a fan of refurbished items, generally returns are due to finicky consumers or improper setup or operation. When sent back to the factory they are double checked by a tech, those that have real problems are trashed or repaired, those that do not are resold cheaper. They are actually more thoroughly tested than a new device.

Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:29 pm

As someone who has "improperly" applied an Eastwood product, I take full responsibility for the issue and do not feel the need to generalize about about a vendors product line.

I screwed up, but have now dialed in even more techniques and gained valuable insight from discussions with that vendor.

Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:49 pm

Well I ordered some of the Eastwood Rubberized Undercoating, (not encapsulator) from Eastwood's Ebay site, it was $6.99 a can shipped and each wheel well takes a can for full 2 coat coverage. As I stated before I had power washed before, but spent an additional 4 hours using a wire brush dry initially and then with general purpose cleaner / degreaser. I power washed after and allowed it to dry overnight. I set the cans in the sun as Insyncro suggested, (90º today) followed the directions on the can to shake the cans often and to agitate for at least a minute before using. The stuff is thick in the can because for the first 15 seconds on the first can I could not even hear the rattle ball in the can. I masked the beams and shock and spring mounts with masking tape and newspaper. There is allot of acetone and other VOC's in this stuff to make it sprayable. I would not recommend using it without a respirator.

After thoroughly cleaning

This is after spraying

The product went on smoothly, I had seen reviews where others complained of clogging. Heating the cans in the sun, ( the directions call for the can to be between 70 and 90 degrees.) I had zero issues. Prepping is the key to good adhesion.

Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:41 pm

I've undercoated 100' s of cars ata dealship and used all different kinds.now most are water base for emviromental reasons.oil base stayed on longer.in time they all will peel.most really don't sound deadin all that well either.sales ploy.why not try truck bed liner paint.wont come off .solve rust issue first

Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:41 pm

I've undercoated 100' s of cars ata dealship and used all different kinds.now most are water base for emviromental reasons.oil base stayed on longer.in time they all will peel.most really don't sound deadin all that well either.sales ploy.why not try truck bed liner paint.wont come off .solve rust issue first

Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:50 pm

they harden over several years and then crack and flake off (exfoliate) as the metal panels flake

the main benefit is to prevent rock strikes from chipping into the paint and causing rust

I am surprised to hear someone say they do not also greatly reduce the noise from such gravel strikes. Obviously, a metal panel will benefit from a sound deadener on the interior and a layer of heavy vinyl decoupled from the panel by foam.

all modern manfs. apply something like this, so why wouldn't you?