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Mon May 27, 2013 10:27 am

Today I took the bug for a long run and it drives fine. While it was on jackstands I bled the brakes. The drums are not as good as the 914 I used to have but still very good stopping ability. I've always had inch-wide sway bars front and rear. I removed them and don't feel any difference in how it drives. What do the sway bars do? I assumed they made the car sway less in sharp turns but I didn't feel any difference today.

Thanks,

crvc

Mon May 27, 2013 12:12 pm

Sway bars. Here is my understanding of sway bars. They are "supposed" to load both sides of the car when cornering. I think they are a waste unless you are driving in NASCAR at high rates of speed. I ran oval dirt tracks for over 20 years and once in a while a guy would come along with a sway bar installed claiming it to be magic. It was usually a car builder trying to sell merchandise. Racing is a "monkey see, monkey do" sport and then shortly afterwords others would have sway bars on. Not much time would pass and the sway bars would be removed because they didn't do much of anything to make the car faster, but the car builder made money selling the sway bars. So you didn't notice a big difference? Was does that tell you? Bugs had them "Z bars" for what, 2 years? That should give you another clue.

Mon May 27, 2013 12:40 pm

Sway (stabilizer) bars are designed with the intent to control..... SWAY...
Normally operation is mainly noted with abrupt and or quick steering actions and reactions . Its intent is to control the amount of body roll by tying an axle and its suspension side to side. If you you dont regularly drive aggressive you may or may not ever use it for its intent.

They do work..

The 67/68 rear equalizer spring is NOT a sway bar in its original state. You can shim it to react and load more aggressively.. It was never desgined for body roll control. Its main purpose provides additional progressive spring action to assist the torsion bars when the vehicle is loaded down. Because its levers slant in opposite directions, the the equalizer spring does not help body roll.

Mon May 27, 2013 12:55 pm

I thought you guys both had computers? :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sway_bar

Call them anti-sway bars, anti-roll bars, or stabilizer bars, either way they are a good thing. VW made the progressive refinement by adding one to Deluxe Beetles in 1960 for a reason. If they were of no use then 99% of new cars wouldn't have one, but they do.

The Z-bar is an overload spring, not a stabilizer bar, and only used in the USA for two years because it was made obsolete when the new improved double jointed independent rear suspension was introduced in 1969.

Mon May 27, 2013 1:17 pm

Sway bars and z bars on a swing axle car help prevent rollovers by 'attempting' to limit rear wheel tuck during a swerve. I use the term attempting loosely,VW cured the issue by going to the IRS suspension,part of the many changes made to the car by NHSTA,the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration...padded dashboards,highback seats,you name it..US safety standards,a product of our government, created the fatchick out of the beetle..one of the many reasons one becomes a libertarian...

Mon May 27, 2013 2:05 pm

An anti-roll bar limits body roll in a corner. As the outside wheel is loaded, the anti-roll bar pushes up on the inside wheel compressing the inside spring. From the outside wheel's perspective, this acts just as if you had stiffer springs installed on the outside wheel. This means you can use slightly softer springs for ride/comfort in a straight line while still having decent corner control.

Additionally, the difference in body roll front to back affects the car's understeer/oversteer balance. Stiffer front/softer rear = more understeer, stiffer rear/softer front = more oversteer. They added the front anti-roll bar to the beetle to increase understeer. This was to increase the handling safety of a car that frankly has oversteer "issues" with it's rear weight bias and/or swing axles. It's why it's generally a bad idea to remove the front bar or to add a rear bar that is stiffer than the front.

Tue May 28, 2013 7:23 am

Dwayne1m wrote: Sway bars. Here is my understanding of sway bars. They are "supposed" to load both sides of the car when cornering. I think they are a waste unless you are driving in NASCAR at high rates of speed. I ran oval dirt tracks for over 20 years and once in a while a guy would come along with a sway bar installed claiming it to be magic. It was usually a car builder trying to sell merchandise. Racing is a "monkey see, monkey do" sport and then shortly afterwords others would have sway bars on. Not much time would pass and the sway bars would be removed because they didn't do much of anything to make the car faster, but the car builder made money selling the sway bars. So you didn't notice a big difference? Was does that tell you? Bugs had them "Z bars" for what, 2 years? That should give you another clue.

I'm glad to see you used the term "ran" oval dirt track and not raced because with your understanding of suspension, sway bars and how things work you couldn't of been much of a racer.

And yep VW stopped putting on the Z-Bar after 2 years, but it wasn't because they didn't work. It’s because there was a complete re-design of the rear suspension which did away with the problems the Z-Bar was installed to correct.

On a race car a real racer will use sway bars to help adjust the chassis for more grip or less grip at one end of the car or another. A good driver with a basic understanding of suspension who is able to feel and understand feedback from the car will be able to make effective changes in sway bar settings to improve cornering speeds and lap times.

Track conditions change a lot through out an event as weather, temperature, air density and the amount of oil, dust or water on the track changes and effects the grip and handling aspects of the car. Knowing how to use sway bars to compensate for those changes is often the difference between winning and loosing.

On a street car, the vehicle manufacturers use sway bars to also try to balance the chassis for the driving habits of the general public.

VW started putting front sway bars on the beetle in 1960 (I think) in order to give the car a little more rear grip and decrease the oversteer characteristics of the car.

Basic rule of thumb on most cars is that adding a sway bar – or a stiffer sway bar, to one end of the car increases grip at the opposite end. So if the rear is sliding out, adding a front bar will add rear grip.

If the front is pushing, adding a rear bar will increase front grip.

But at some point if you go too stiff, the added bar begins to decrease grip on the end of the car in which it is installed.

The Z-Bar was a completely different animal and is NOT a sway bar. It acts more along the lines of a camber compensator to control or eliminate wheel tuck on a swing axle. It was marketed as a “helper” spring in order to avoid negative publicity associated with actually admitting the cars had a handling issue that they were trying to correct.

There were several changes made in 67 to change the cars tendency to oversteer. Softer rear torsion bars, lower rear ride height which also increased negative camber at the rear, higher front ride height, positive camber up front. All of these changes were designed to promote understeer which is far less deadly to the general motoring public then oversteer.

Tue May 28, 2013 2:29 pm

drscope wrote: Dwayne1m wrote: Sway bars. Here is my understanding of sway bars. They are "supposed" to load both sides of the car when cornering. I think they are a waste unless you are driving in NASCAR at high rates of speed. I ran oval dirt tracks for over 20 years and once in a while a guy would come along with a sway bar installed claiming it to be magic. It was usually a car builder trying to sell merchandise. Racing is a "monkey see, monkey do" sport and then shortly afterwords others would have sway bars on. Not much time would pass and the sway bars would be removed because they didn't do much of anything to make the car faster, but the car builder made money selling the sway bars. So you didn't notice a big difference? Was does that tell you? Bugs had them "Z bars" for what, 2 years? That should give you another clue.

I'm glad to see you used the term "ran" oval dirt track and not raced because with your understanding of suspension, sway bars and how things work you couldn't of been much of a racer.

Well excuse me Mario Andretti. I still do race, been so since 1989 in fact and won numerous races, thank you very much. I run only dirt ovals and sway bars were/are of no noticable benefit other than the car builders selling them to make a profit. I have a friend working for a car builder tell me that himself. Does Steve Kinser use a sway bar? Nope. Sammy Swindell? Nope. Donny Schatz? Again, nope. So your point to trash me other than to puff out your chest was?

Tue May 28, 2013 8:29 pm

crvc wrote: I've always had inch-wide sway bars front and rear. I removed them and don't feel any difference in how it drives. What do the sway bars do? I assumed they made the car sway less in sharp turns but I didn't feel any difference today.

1-inch sway bars are extremely stiff on a car as light as a Bug. Many think 3/4" is too stiff. It's hard to imagine you not feeling the difference in roll (pitch-over) in tight turns. On level roads it won't ride harsher; maybe that's what you mean by not feeling a difference.

A thicker-then-stock front bar will make the front end slide sooner, balancing the natural oversteer tendency, at least up to a point. To the argument foaming above, maybe body lean isn't an issue on a dirt track since you are sliding 100% of the time in corners already.

Tue May 28, 2013 9:26 pm

drscope wrote: Dwayne1m wrote: Sway bars. Here is my understanding of sway bars. They are "supposed" to load both sides of the car when cornering. I think they are a waste unless you are driving in NASCAR at high rates of speed. I ran oval dirt tracks for over 20 years and once in a while a guy would come along with a sway bar installed claiming it to be magic. It was usually a car builder trying to sell merchandise. Racing is a "monkey see, monkey do" sport and then shortly afterwords others would have sway bars on. Not much time would pass and the sway bars would be removed because they didn't do much of anything to make the car faster, but the car builder made money selling the sway bars. So you didn't notice a big difference? Was does that tell you? Bugs had them "Z bars" for what, 2 years? That should give you another clue.

I'm glad to see you used the term "ran" oval dirt track and not raced because with your understanding of suspension, sway bars and how things work you couldn't of been much of a racer.

And yep VW stopped putting on the Z-Bar after 2 years, but it wasn't because they didn't work. It’s because there was a complete re-design of the rear suspension which did away with the problems the Z-Bar was installed to correct.

On a race car a real racer will use sway bars to help adjust the chassis for more grip or less grip at one end of the car or another. A good driver with a basic understanding of suspension who is able to feel and understand feedback from the car will be able to make effective changes in sway bar settings to improve cornering speeds and lap times.

Track conditions change a lot through out an event as weather, temperature, air density and the amount of oil, dust or water on the track changes and effects the grip and handling aspects of the car. Knowing how to use sway bars to compensate for those changes is often the difference between winning and loosing.

On a street car, the vehicle manufacturers use sway bars to also try to balance the chassis for the driving habits of the general public.

VW started putting front sway bars on the beetle in 1960 (I think) in order to give the car a little more rear grip and decrease the oversteer characteristics of the car.

Basic rule of thumb on most cars is that adding a sway bar – or a stiffer sway bar, to one end of the car increases grip at the opposite end. So if the rear is sliding out, adding a front bar will add rear grip.

If the front is pushing, adding a rear bar will increase front grip.

But at some point if you go too stiff, the added bar begins to decrease grip on the end of the car in which it is installed.

The Z-Bar was a completely different animal and is NOT a sway bar. It acts more along the lines of a camber compensator to control or eliminate wheel tuck on a swing axle. It was marketed as a “helper” spring in order to avoid negative publicity associated with actually admitting the cars had a handling issue that they were trying to correct.

There were several changes made in 67 to change the cars tendency to oversteer. Softer rear torsion bars, lower rear ride height which also increased negative camber at the rear, higher front ride height, positive camber up front. All of these changes were designed to promote understeer which is far less deadly to the general motoring public then oversteer.

Thanks for chiming in drscope, I might add that no manufacturer wants to spend needless money on a product because every penny counts. GM for example has been using sway bars in their products since the 1930's. They wouldn't put them there unless they were absolutely necessary.... period.
On my two street/ track cars (G/T) I use sway bars along with jacking points on the suspension to change load/unload distribution because it's easier than changing bars as fuel burns off or if tire traction changes.

Wed May 29, 2013 11:15 am

Technically, they aren't necessary. You can get the same roll control using only the springs. But that would make the ride unnecessarily hard for most people and you lose some grip over bumps with overly stiff springs. The really nice thing about ARBs is you can make fast tuning changes to the car, you can alter your effective spring rate and understeer/oversteer balance without needing to change your springs. A simple screw or mounting hole adjustment is all that's needed. And depending on type, you can even have cockpit adjustable ARBs for on the fly changes.

Outlaw sprint car drivers are a bad example for the claim that ARBs are of no use since the rules ban anti-roll bars on those cars. I think you are throwing away a nice tuning tool if you can use them but don't.

Wed May 29, 2013 1:53 pm

Dwayne1m wrote: drscope wrote: Dwayne1m wrote: Sway bars. Here is my understanding of sway bars. They are "supposed" to load both sides of the car when cornering. I think they are a waste unless you are driving in NASCAR at high rates of speed. I ran oval dirt tracks for over 20 years and once in a while a guy would come along with a sway bar installed claiming it to be magic. It was usually a car builder trying to sell merchandise. Racing is a "monkey see, monkey do" sport and then shortly afterwords others would have sway bars on. Not much time would pass and the sway bars would be removed because they didn't do much of anything to make the car faster, but the car builder made money selling the sway bars. So you didn't notice a big difference? Was does that tell you? Bugs had them "Z bars" for what, 2 years? That should give you another clue.

I'm glad to see you used the term "ran" oval dirt track and not raced because with your understanding of suspension, sway bars and how things work you couldn't of been much of a racer.

Well excuse me Mario Andretti. I still do race, been so since 1989 in fact and won numerous races, thank you very much. I run only dirt ovals and sway bars were/are of no noticable benefit other than the car builders selling them to make a profit. I have a friend working for a car builder tell me that himself. Does Steve Kinser use a sway bar? Nope. Sammy Swindell? Nope. Donny Schatz? Again, nope. So your point to trash me other than to puff out your chest was?

I hate to disappoint you, but Steve Kinser, Sammy Swindell, Donny Schatz and all the other World of Outlaw drivers use sway bars! In fact they use COCK PIT ADJUSTABLE SWAY BARS so they can change settings to keep up with changing track conditions during a run.

Wed May 29, 2013 2:15 pm

Dwayne has corrected me that only front anti-roll bars are banned on outlaw sprints.

Wed May 29, 2013 2:41 pm

Dwayne1m wrote: Sway bars. Here is my understanding of sway bars. They are "supposed" to load both sides of the car when cornering. I think they are a waste unless you are driving in NASCAR at high rates of speed. I ran oval dirt tracks for over 20 years and once in a while a guy would come along with a sway bar installed claiming it to be magic. It was usually a car builder trying to sell merchandise. Racing is a "monkey see, monkey do" sport and then shortly afterwords others would have sway bars on. Not much time would pass and the sway bars would be removed because they didn't do much of anything to make the car faster, but the car builder made money selling the sway bars. So you didn't notice a big difference? Was does that tell you? Bugs had them "Z bars" for what, 2 years? That should give you another clue.

Hey Dwayne, do you drive the same way on a dirt track as you do on a paved road? Are you throwing the a$$ end out of your VW when go around a corner on your way home from work? Apples and oranges, right? Don't apply what works on an oval dirt track race car to what is needed on your street driven VW.

Wed May 29, 2013 2:58 pm

Ten years ago I had a 1971 Porsche 914. No matter how fast I took a corner that car did not sway. Then when I got the bug I couldn't deal with all the swaying or rolling. I think it was here that I asked what to do. The suggestions included sway bars front and rear, coil-over shocks and lowering the bug.

I never had a shop class in 4 years of high school and never had time for auto shop in my 9 years of college. So my stupid questions come from that background.

The photo shows what I do for a living, what I've done six days a week for the past 28 years. :-)

crvc

Wed May 29, 2013 4:31 pm

drscope wrote: Dwayne1m wrote: drscope wrote: Dwayne1m wrote: Sway bars. Here is my understanding of sway bars. They are "supposed" to load both sides of the car when cornering. I think they are a waste unless you are driving in NASCAR at high rates of speed. I ran oval dirt tracks for over 20 years and once in a while a guy would come along with a sway bar installed claiming it to be magic. It was usually a car builder trying to sell merchandise. Racing is a "monkey see, monkey do" sport and then shortly afterwords others would have sway bars on. Not much time would pass and the sway bars would be removed because they didn't do much of anything to make the car faster, but the car builder made money selling the sway bars. So you didn't notice a big difference? Was does that tell you? Bugs had them "Z bars" for what, 2 years? That should give you another clue.

I'm glad to see you used the term "ran" oval dirt track and not raced because with your understanding of suspension, sway bars and how things work you couldn't of been much of a racer.

Well excuse me Mario Andretti. I still do race, been so since 1989 in fact and won numerous races, thank you very much. I run only dirt ovals and sway bars were/are of no noticable benefit other than the car builders selling them to make a profit. I have a friend working for a car builder tell me that himself. Does Steve Kinser use a sway bar? Nope. Sammy Swindell? Nope. Donny Schatz? Again, nope. So your point to trash me other than to puff out your chest was?

I hate to disappoint you, but Steve Kinser, Sammy Swindell, Donny Schatz and all the other World of Outlaw drivers use sway bars! In fact they use COCK PIT ADJUSTABLE SWAY BARS so they can change settings to keep up with changing track conditions during a run.

Well now Mario, that is interesting. Seems to me we have a dilemma since section 15 of the World of Outlaw rule book states that the only cockpit adjustable device within a drivers reach allowed is the top wing adjuster. Hmmm. Looks like Mario needs to do some more research or provide an up to date pick of Steve Kinser's/Sammy Swindell's/Donny Schatz's car with a cockpit adjustable sway bar.

Wed May 29, 2013 4:50 pm

Here's a good explanation of sway bars and how they work.
http://www.stealthtdi.com/SwayBars.html
Every time you make a change i.e. larger sway bars, stiffer springs and shocks, wider lower profile tires, it will change car's ride. There is always a compromise between ride and cornering/handling.
The suggestions of sway bars front and rear, coil-over shocks and lowering the bug are great. I would probably look at a good gas shock like a KYB or Bilstein instead of a coil over. And don't forget tires and rims too.

Thu May 30, 2013 5:23 am

This topic is =

:lol:

Thu May 30, 2013 6:00 am

I swear by heavy duty sway bars. This is one of the first things I install when I buy a new bug. I can sure feel the difference cornering. I guess I'm a pretty agressive driver. I think of my truck as my big B1 bomber and my bug as my little fighter jet.

Thu May 30, 2013 6:36 am

One of the best things I did to make my buggy turn in on corners was put on a reaar swaybar and 27mm torsion bars. Before I did that the rear of my car would set down on a corner and lift the inside front tire up to 6" off the course on big sweepers.

brad