TheSamba.com :: View topic - Inner tubes? run 'em or not on 15" wheels

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:36 pm

What are your thoughts and/or solutions about running inner tubes on the earlier 15"stock wheels for Buses. They are generally "tube-type" wheels without the inner pressed safety lip in the steel wheel that makes the later wheels "tubeless'. Just curious about what the more diligent among you are running.

On one of my Buses I already run the Firestone 6.40 bias ply tires on 15 stock wheels without tubes. All has been fine so far, but luckily I have never had to make a sudden, evasive, sharp turn that might roll the tire bead in an inward direction and off the rim. See the Bentley bible warnings on 15' wheels using tubes.

But as I get ready to mount up some Nexen 195R15" 8 ply radials on another set of stock 15" wheels, I'm thinking about the safety bonus of adding the tubes. For those of you in the know, another question is what size inner tube to order, and does anyone have a good source for correct sized inner tubes for our 15" VW Bus wheels?

Talk amounst yourselves! And on here too!

Bill

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:12 pm

BulliBill wrote: What are your thoughts and/or solutions about running inner tubes on the earlier 15"stock wheels for Buses. They are generally "tube-type" wheels without the inner pressed safety lip in the steel wheel that makes the later wheels "tubeless'. Just curious about what the more diligent among you are running.

On one of my Buses I already run the Firestone 6.40 bias ply tires on 15 stock wheels without tubes. All has been fine so far, but luckily I have never had to make a sudden, evasive, sharp turn that might roll the tire bead in an inward direction and off the rim. See the Bentley bible warnings on 15' wheels using tubes.

But as I get ready to mount up some Nexen 195R15" 8 ply radials on another set of stock 15" wheels, I'm thinking about the safety bonus of adding the tubes. For those of you in the know, another question is what size inner tube to order, and does anyone have a good source for correct sized inner tubes for our 15" VW Bus wheels?

Talk amounst yourselves! And on here too!

Bill

i would run the tubes, the same ones that are inside the bias ply tires :)

the vendors have always used the same size tubes for beetle, bus and Citroen 2CV. even though the sizes are not exactly the same.

i made it simple,
stock wheel, bias ply, tubes
radial tire, no tubes, after market wheels

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:40 pm

I haven't run tubes with 15s because the tires are "tubeless".

I do run them with my 16s. Reason: 3.5" wide wheels.

I have seen that Bentley warning but before I saw that I have done some stuff that would broken the bead if that was true and it hasn't happened.

Doesn't hurt though...

I have bought tubes from Coker as well as from my local Discount Tire.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:54 pm

I have my local tire guy put tubes in when he mounts them. I have only been mounting Bias ply lately though.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:06 pm

Some Info from Avon Tire site:

Seemed to make sense to me.
Note the clause that specifies radial tubes to be used in radial tires.

Quote: Tube fitment
Guidance on tubes in tubeless road tyres

Tubeless tyres in good condition, both new and retreads, fitted to the appropriate wheels and operated correctly, do not need inner tubes however there are some circumstances when it is useful to use a tube. When tubes are fitted, it is important for the user to understand the potential drawbacks.

1.When a tubeless tyre is punctured, the penetrating object is gripped by the inner liner (the built-in tube) and thus air loss through the penetration will be gradual. By contrast, when a tube type or a tubeless tyre fitted with a tube is punctured, once the tube is penetrated, air loss will normally be sudden. In this case, air will rapidly escape through the valve hole in the wheel and between the tyre beads and the wheel which, with a tube fitted, no longer provides a hermetic seal. Sudden pressure loss in a tyre can result in bead dislodgement and a loss of vehicle control.
2.When a tube is fitted to any tyre, it is important that the inside of the tyre is carefully examined to ensure that there is no feature which could cause premature tube failure due to cuts or chafing. Such examples are:-
•Any tire manufacturer’s paper or plastic identification labels must be removed and label indentations buffed smooth.
•Damage to the inside of the tyre, possibly due to a previous penetration or repair can lead to chafing of the tube and subsequent failure.
•The increased thickness of the tyre / tube assembly can cause running temperatures to increase and could under prolonged conditions cause premature tyre failure.
Not withstanding the potential hazards, there are circumstances when the use of tubes may be recommended. The following points should be noted:

1.Inner tubes must be fitted to all tyres that are NOT marked as “Tubeless” and to all tyres marked as “Tube Type”.
2.Always use a new tube in a tyre with matching size marking.
3.NEVER install a non-radial tube in a radial tyres
4.Inner tubes should also be used:
•Where tubeless tyres are fitted to non-safety wheels or multi-piece wheels.
•Where tubeless tyres are fitted with wire spoked wheels where air could otherwise escape through the spoke holes in the wheel.
1.Inner tubes should not be used as a means of repairing a puncture to a tubeless tyre, as a proper repair should be carried out to retain the tubeless properties of the tyre.
2.The fitment of tubes to tyres of 65 series and lower is not recommended.
3.If correct size tubes are not available, an alternative size tube should NOT be used.
Wire wheels, multi-piece wheels and some single piece wheels designed for tube type applications CANNOT be used as tubeless fitments and the use of a tube (regardless of whether the tyre is “tube type” or “tubeless”) is ESSENTIAL FOR SAFETY. Always use tubes in such fitments.

I don't run tubes in any of my stock 15" bus wheels, but I have never faced a hairy situation where I had to perform a death swerve that could have popped the bead.
.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:27 pm

Not sure about current mfg radial tires: but, original Michelin X radials back in the day required radial tubes. Regular bias tire tubes would not hold up in the Michelin. Ask me how I know. I tried; they lasted about 200 miles.

Since you are going to run radials I would definitely put in a radial tube if you go that way. But, I am also running bias 6.40 X 15 on my panel without tubes on 15" crows foots and no issue to date.

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:53 am

EverettB wrote: I haven't run tubes with 15s because the tires are "tubeless".

x2

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:09 am

Clara wrote: EverettB wrote: I haven't run tubes with 15s because the tires are "tubeless".

x2

the reason to put tubes in the tires is two-fold:
tube type tires vs tubeless tires.
the second aspect would be the wheels.
radial tire wheels have "humps" that locate the bead on the rim. no need for a tube here. if that "hump" is not there, the bead is not located correctly, it can move, and air loss can occur.

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:16 pm

mandraks wrote: Clara wrote: EverettB wrote: I haven't run tubes with 15s because the tires are "tubeless".

x2

the reason to put tubes in the tires is two-fold:
tube type tires vs tubeless tires.
the second aspect would be the wheels.
radial tire wheels have "humps" that locate the bead on the rim. no need for a tube here. if that "hump" is not there, the bead is not located correctly, it can move, and air loss can occur.

I have put many miles on buses with 15" bus rims and 205/75 R 15 radial tires, 6.40 - 15 tires (not as many miles) and stock splitty 14" rims with various radial tires.
I am sure I have put over 10K miles per year on buses each year for the last 24 years.

I've put a much, much smaller amount of miles on buses with non og VW wheels. such as Cragars, vintage Centerlines, and modern BRMS

I have never had a tire fall off a rim.

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:35 pm

15" rims with bias plys and radials for 15+ years and never ran tubes.

Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:48 pm

I looked into this a little when I got radials for my '64 (15 inch rims) because I was alarmed by the warning from VW. I concluded that most people just run radials on 15" rims with no tubes. I have never heard of someone losing a tire bead. So in a sense it is well tested. If you run tubes that are compatible with radials I do think you are reducing risk, but the risk is pretty low to begin with.

As far as that goes I think the same applies to any stock vw rim with no safety lip. You'll find lots of people running those rims with radials and tubeless bias plys with no tubes. But you won't hear complaints of losing a bead.

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:05 pm

I know this is a little different wheel but same idea. I run really early fuchs on my bus and ran them tubeless for the first part of it until I had a problem. Like the early stock wheels you are talking about they have no bump on the inside of the wheel to hold the tire bead on. So what happened to mine is it got a little slack and I hit a bump while turning and the tire came right off the rim. Scared the s@&t out of me so you better believe I got tubes in it. Kinda a pain it the neck but makes me feel safer.

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:59 pm

This is from Large tire thread. Picturing what is being said.

VWTECHEDITOR wrote: Most VW Factory repair information from the 1960s and 1970s had versions of the information shown in this picture. I combined two of them and made a single illustration to help illustrate the point.

I post this as FYI information. Given the many benefits of radial tires, the limited choice of available bias-ply tires, and the lower tire pressures originally specified, I don't know what I'd do. I'm pretty fussy (read anal) when it comes to heeding this sort of warning, but I think I'd be inclined to pump up the pressure and use radials anyway if I found the the right tire. Although I'm thinking that that 6.70 bias-ply that has been mentioned might be the best general-purpose choice.

My current VWs are a pair of 1969 Beetles and my wheels are the later type with the safety hump, so I'm OK. I HAVE seen both front and rear tires popped off their bead, but it has been a long time, and I can't really say that they were radials.

Art LeBrun
vwtecheditor