TheSamba.com :: View topic - bent frame / damage from accident opinions

Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:40 pm

This is an old issue, from a rear end accident I originally posted about here;

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487200&highlight=bent+frame

I say "bent frame" in the subject line since I don't really know how else to characterize it, even though quite a few think it's not a bent frame, but rather a suspension or other related fix.

This has been ongoing for more than a year now, because I am frequently out of town for poker tournaments.

The insurance folks have no problem with paying for it to be fixed, the issue is, nobody in this town is willing to try to fix it.

Body shop guys say "we can't mess with that, the frame is bent".
Frame shops say "we don't have any specs on that"
When I say I can GET the specs, they just aren't interested.

Insurance has paid for body, paint, parts...

Ideas?
Am I going to have to take this out of town?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:24 pm

As I stated in your earlier post the damage "it looks like a flesh wound". It just doesn't appear from the pictures that the "frame" could be bent from just that hit.

Typically when a vehicle goes down the road like that, they call it "dog tracking". It can be seen on older cars with rear leaf springs where the rear axle is not on perpendicular to the axis of the car. Your van is most likely tracking like that because the left rear swing arm got knocked out of the alignment or could be bent. That is about the only thing that could be causing it. The rear swing arms mount in two places in front of the rear wheel and are pretty stout. With the damage in the picture well away from that area I'd be shocked to find the frame is bent causing the van to go down the road that way.

You might want to take the van for an alignment. First, they can measure the alignment to see if it is off, second they might be able to see where the swing arm is bent if it is and lastly they might be able to put it back where it needs to be and all you would to do then is get the body work done.

The body shop guys say the frame is bent? What are the measurements then? Tell me where and how much the frame is bent. I know, they don't even want to deal with it........very sad. So either you will have to take some initial steps like the above or search out somebody with half a brain to fix it right.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:02 pm

Go for a 4 wheel align. There must be good alignment shops around. Some crusty old timer would do well.

Be prepared for a left trailing arm replacement.

Did you get a new wheel?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:04 pm

I would go to some hot rod shops. Ask them to see who they would send you to to have your chassis worked on.
I would think that you are going to have to find an old school body guy. How many guys are around that know how to work with an 80's unibody chassis? Taking it out of town would probably be worth it if you get a good referral.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:08 pm

Thanks for the replies guys....

Guess I'll keep asking around.

As for the wheels..... both are scuffed up, and the insurance co hasn't been willing to address them.

To be honest, this has been going on for so long I would really just be glad if I could get it in straight-running condition.

Pretty surprised they didn't want to total it.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:16 pm

The last accident that I was in I called the insurance adjuster EVERY DAY.
The lady finally gave me everything that I wanted including keeping my car with clean title just to get rid of me. Never underestimate the power of being annoying. :lol:

I also vote that it is suspension damage or it was thrown out of rear alignment.
Good luck.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:26 pm

I recently looked at a Vanagon for sale.. Had a good amount of damage from a rear end accident of some sort. F/G bumper broken in two and the rear panel shoved in about 2 inches to the left of the license plate.

And it sure looked like a bent frame, to me...
The tip? There was a warp in the side panel over the rear wheel. No other damage along the side. No scratches, there.. but a very subtle warp across the entire panel and no creasing.

Contact at that frame member where the bumpers attach could surely bend the chassis/frame. Pushing the engine/drivetrain forward.

Glad I passed on that van, BTW. Don't know how something like that could be fully repaired. Straighten frame, replace side panel, rear lower panel and driver side rear pillar. 1000s.
And its still compromised after all that work? No thanks.

Looked a little worse than yours, though.

I'd ask the body guys what suggests the bent frame... There must be some indicator other than the trailing arm being out of alignment.

Then I'd ask the frame guys what specs they need.. Surely, there must be a way.

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:41 am

In your other thread you mentioned having abent tie rod on the front. So I would suggest as others have, that you find a alignment shop and go in with your own front tie rod. Tell them "I got side swiped a lil-bit and I want you to do an alignment check" get her on the rack. Tie rod? Yeah look in the glove box. They won't be able to locate a rear swing arm on short notice, so I wouldn't worry too much about them trying to replace stuff just in case. But they can adjust. Make sure you get a print out from the machine with the before and after alignment specs. Its worth the buy-in just for that.

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:45 am

is that the S pipe of a inline 4cyl exhuast I see?

is your van gas or Diesel? more importantly if it's gas was the DS frame notched to accomodate the intake manifold?

if yes then the frame could be tweaked by the force that the bumper pushed in down the channel.
just my $.02 wild guess a minute before I run out for lunch.

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:51 am

I read this and it sounds like you already got the money to fix the van???? that is odd, usually to make a claim you need a repair quote. The shop that quoted you should do the work. If they later claim they cant do the work, then the estimate they made is not valid.

I assume you got the money from the other drivers insurance, as it is often the case, if your own company fixes the van, they wont give you cash (unless totalled) they will instead pay the body shop directly to repair your van.

so how is it you got the money already? if you got an amount of money based on a body shop quotaion, and now the body shop wont fix the van for you, you may have legal grounds to sue that body shop for making a false estimate. an esitmate you relied on to obtain a settlement.

tell us a little more as to how you got the settlement money.

this is so screwy.

the fault driver, is supposed to make you whole again. Which means they must either pay to have your van fixxed to pre-crash condition, or pay for the actual value of the van before it was hit. they also will owe you damages for any pain and suffering, lost wages, and expenses such as time off work for getting van repaired, rental on a replacement Camper van (not an econo box, they need to rent you an equivelent vehicle) while yours is being repaired. they also should owe you for your time spent dealing with this. (based on your hourly wages)

I dont know how it got to the point where you have some cash payout, yet have no one able to repair the van. how did the amount of money you recieved get calculated? Did they total the van and cash you out? what estimate did the insurance use to come up with the figure they gave you?

this is not right.

Please give some more detials on whos insurance is paying for this? How the value that they sent you was calculated, etc...

from the appearance, the van should not be totalled, assuming it was in good condition before the wreck. after all a decent camper van can sell for $10,000 any day. I am pretty sure the damages is not near that price. if the damage was near that price (ie retail price of the van before crash) then the insurace will total the van, and you would get a big fat check from them, and often you have the option at that point to buy the van back from them for little money as scrap value. then fix it, part it out or what ever.

You should NOT be in a position of getting paid out for the van at less than the "totalled value" and still have all the shops telling you it cant be repaired.

if in deed it cant be repaired, then you need to demand that the insurance company total the van, so you can get the full cash value (then decide if you want to replace her, or fix her). If the insurance company decides to total the van, you then get to argue the value, they will often low ball you at first, then you come up with recent local sales info, apprasials, reciepts etc... to prove a higher value, and negociate from there.

to have a non-totaled settlement, yet have all the shops say to you it cant be repaired is not right, your being screwed by someone, either the insurance company, or the shop that wrote an estimate that they wont honor.

You might want too talk to a car crash lawyer, often you can get twenty minutes of free face to face advice. If the van cant be repaired, your owed a replacement van.

please give more details on how you and the insurance reached this settlement amount that you have to work with.

this is too weird, some one took advantage of you, and it may not be too late to make it right.

the mercedes owner is ultimatley responsible, your own insurance may hlep if the mercedes driver had no insurance, or if you have full coverage.

The shop that did an estimate for repair MUST honor that estimate unless there is hidden damage found that was missed during the orignal estimate. If that is the case, then you can go back to the insurance and tell them that there is aditional damage not evident at the time of the first estimate. they must pay the difference to get all the repairs done.

worst case is maybe you have to use an out of area repair shop, in case if no local shops can do it, then the insurance will pay for transport to the out of area shop, and provide you with a rental van while awaiting return of your repaired van

you got a good case, so please give more info on how we got to this stage of you being paid some money, yet having no shop willing to take on the work.

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:24 pm

I have had use of a old timer shop close here set up for frame work. With the embedded anchors around a work area set off he could pull anyhing back into position or close enuf to replace bad parts, probably could pull one into to pieces, just knowing how and where these days a problem . A law now prevents taking 2 good halves, welding(?) back and allowing back on the road.

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:49 pm

morymob wrote: I have had use of a old timer shop close here set up for frame work. With the embedded anchors around a work area set off he could pull anyhing back into position or close enuf to replace bad parts, probably could pull one into to pieces, just knowing how and where these days a problem . A law now prevents taking 2 good halves, welding(?) back and allowing back on the road.

i dont think the law aginst welding two halves together would apply here. even if the frame had to be sourced from another vanagon, that would be legal I think. That could be one easy solution IF the frame is really bent. Just swap it out with a good used one. i bet they are lots of good frames in broken down vans at wreckers, just cut out what you need and replace.

You might inquire at a place that speicalizes in truck, 4x4 , classic muscle car and off road vehicle repairs. They are more than likely to have the right equipment (ie large frame rack) and are well versed in frame straightening.

Some vehicles require specialized fittings and adaptors to work on frame tables. Most shops dont own all these parts, maybe some parts for a vehcile type they work on a lot, Most frame shops have a deal with a rental company that does stock all the fixture parts for most vehicles. The cost of the rental is part of the estimate. If the Vanagon needs anything really special, any established shop with good credit should be able to rent them.
Any established frame probably does this on a regular basis.

Take her to an alignment shop for to see if she can be aligned. If she cant, make sure you get a diagnoisis as to WHY she cant be aligned by someone that knows FRAMES. as the alignment guy may not be able to pin point the exact cause of the problem. you want a couple opinions on this

Most cars these days are unibody with no frame, so there are many body shops that are not equipend to deal with a large frame repair.

The Vanagon should be treated like a Truck in regards to the equipment and skill set needed to repair a frame. A shop that only fixes Camery's and Civics likey wont have one or both of these things.

Any good shop should easily have the resources to look up the frame specifications for repair or checking on a frame table. Many good shops either subscribe to a service that provides all the factory specifications/repair book images via the internet etc... for any make year and model well older than any Vanagon, or they know where to buy that info or get it from a public domain source. That should not be difficult at all for anyone that wants the job.

Your seeing the wrong people to get your vanagon inspected/repaired if they tell you that they cant handle a frame or cant get the diminsions for a Vanagon. You dont want some one like that messing with your van anyway. try some other sources, they are out there.

Finally it has been a while, if you have been driving the van, I ask how does she handle?

drive straight?

Steer easy?

vibrations?

How many miles has she gone post accident?

How have the tires worn?

These are the important factors too. Plenty of cars can be crooked, but still be aligned out side of factory specifications to be stable, safe, and offer normal tire wear.

You also need an estimate for wheel rim repair or replacement. then claim that aginst the guy that hit your Vanagon, or your insurance if your policy covers it. Your legally owed that too!!!

what insurance coverage do you have on the Van (at time of crash)?

Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:14 pm

Depends on state law. Also if u did join 2 together well and even with several owners later an an accident happened and inspectors could prove your work failed u will still be at fault. I know some done in various ways, 3 wheelers with vw/bike frames, home built ultralites and were taken apart before new owner picked up(with ok). Paperwork describing 'it' as parts with date, signed by witness and signed by all parties involved,both a copy and now if someone manages to re-assy and gets themself or others hurt, their problem. So as mentioned , check your state law on this subject, a law suit could easily ruin u.