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Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:45 pm

Anyone have any tips for home grown machining of the centers of Audi/VW wheels for a 2WD?

Potential techniques I have heard of, but seen no real details on:
using a hole saw
router using a bearing/shear bit following a spacer with a 66.6mm bore but no hubcentric lip
router using a home made router base/template

Anyone have any personal experiences they would like to share? Tips? Advice? A cheap machine shop in Seattle who does the work?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:25 pm

Yeah, I would just take it to a machine shop and tell them what you need. Should be pretty reasonable. Last set I had done local I traded $20 and a case of beer.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:36 pm

bstory wrote: Anyone have any tips for home grown machining of the centers of Audi/VW wheels for a 2WD?

Potential techniques I have heard of, but seen no real details on:
using a hole saw
router using a bearing/shear bit following a spacer with a 66.6mm bore but no hubcentric lip
router using a home made router base/template

Anyone have any personal experiences they would like to share? Tips? Advice? A cheap machine shop in Seattle who does the work?

The major problem with a DIY boring job is that tire balancing machines use the inner hub as a centering reference point. A ragged/off-centre hole will make the wheels un-balanceable...

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:16 pm

Looking at the options you gave ..., go to a machine shop with a case or two of beer and ask them to do it for you. Go with the rubber off of the wheels and the rims pressure washed to make it as easy for them as possible. Unless you have experience centering a hole for machining I wouldn't do it yourself. It's not as easy as some may think to do it properly, plus it's costly, and dangerous. A boring tool would be your best choice but the tool alone will run around 150 bucks at least and I doubt if you used a drill press it would have the power to cut that big of a hole. Not to mention you'll need to figure out the cutting speed, the cut depths, the feed speed, for whatever metal the rims are made of and you'll need to secure it properly. You'll just end up wrecking the rims by not doing it right and probably hurting yourself. There is a reason you don't hear much about these methods ... Because they didn't work. Believe me, I know machining and unless you have the equipment and the experience, don't do it yourself. Sorry about the rant but I've literally seen fingers and fingernails ripped off in a split second and I don't want to hear about it happening here.
Mike

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:17 pm

Jake de Villiers wrote: bstory wrote: Anyone have any tips for home grown machining of the centers of Audi/VW wheels for a 2WD?

Potential techniques I have heard of, but seen no real details on:
using a hole saw
router using a bearing/shear bit following a spacer with a 66.6mm bore but no hubcentric lip
router using a home made router base/template

Anyone have any personal experiences they would like to share? Tips? Advice? A cheap machine shop in Seattle who does the work?

The major problem with a DIY boring job is that tire balancing machines use the inner hub as a centering reference point. A ragged/off-centre hole will make the wheels un-balanceable...

Bingo!!! And once they are boogered up, making them right again is a major pain and will cost more than having them done right in the first place.

Limited Productions in Bellevue has been doing them for just a bit over $100 per set of four and they do a great job. Note that the wheel cannot have tires on them in order for any machined shop to do the work accurately.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:29 pm

I got away with it! But not easily:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219816

The wheels did mount, and do balance--in fact, I went nearly six years without balancing 'em, which, in retrospect, was stupid...

:shock:

But, why you CAN do it yourself, and I DID do it myself, if you can find a rim shop that will do it for you--and I've since found local shops that would cheerfully have done it--I'd have it done. It took me weeks to get the alloy shavings out of my hair.

:shock:

I did, however, get to use a special tool...

:twisted:

Best!

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:18 pm

I found a guy in a wheel shop that would do it for $40 a set when his parents (the owners) were out of town. Otherwise they charged around $100.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:51 pm

If you look around there are a lot of people doing it themselves with a router. Its on youtube as well. Looks as though they use a bit w a ballbearing guide. I think that $100 a set is a little steep for shaving off a few 8ths of an inch per wheel but thats just me. Im a DIY kind of guy. Best bet is to take it to someone if you want it proper the first time. Im actually gonna try this myself. Picking up some curbed n bent 19" audi reps to mess with. Gonna attempt a bore, straighten and refinish for the vanny.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:12 pm

I did it myself, used a side cutting bit and then a die grinder with a sand paper drum to smooth it out.

I've done 8 wheels this way. If you are really concerned about the center bore being off just tell the tire shop the wheels are lug centric like the OEM wheels.

Sure if you can find a shop that will do it for a reasonable price go for it, in my experience machine shops want to something like $50 a wheel for this type of work.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:30 pm

Christopher Schimke wrote: Jake de Villiers wrote: bstory wrote: Anyone have any tips for home grown machining of the centers of Audi/VW wheels for a 2WD?

Potential techniques I have heard of, but seen no real details on:
using a hole saw
router using a bearing/shear bit following a spacer with a 66.6mm bore but no hubcentric lip
router using a home made router base/template

Anyone have any personal experiences they would like to share? Tips? Advice? A cheap machine shop in Seattle who does the work?

The major problem with a DIY boring job is that tire balancing machines use the inner hub as a centering reference point. A ragged/off-centre hole will make the wheels un-balanceable...

Bingo!!! And once they are boogered up, making them right again is a major pain and will cost more than having them done right in the first place.

Limited Productions in Bellevue has been doing them for just a bit over $100 per set of four and they do a great job. Note that the wheel cannot have tires on them in order for any machined shop to do the work accurately.

Chris, sounds like you have used them before ? they know the drill (no pun intended) for fitting a Vanagon, i.e bore, depth needed and chamfer ?

I've also been wondering lately, what is the deal with the rear hubs ? do they need 66.6 bore too ?

also I went to a machine shop next to my work, they owner said he wouldn't do it on the books but he'd let one of his employees do it for money/beer/ whatever after hours. this would be Washington Machine on 1st ave just south of Spokane st in Seattle just in case one of you wants to try them out. the owner didn't want to run the job on the books for liability reasons.

if one were to have this done, would it be good to have them bored to be hub-centric ? seeing that the Vanagon is not hub centric...? I know some of your spacers have a hubcentric flange, that would mean a gap between the bore and hub so what is the wall thickness on the spacer ? one would need to over-bore the wheel to accommodate that right ?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:25 am

I used to have mine CNC milled for $5 per wheel before my machinist retired. (Edited to show cost was NOT $20 per wheel but per set. In other words, $5 per wheel.) :oops:

Burley at Burleysmotorsports.com said he can do them but he's in California.

I have a flycutter bit bought specifically for this purpose. The shanks is too big for home drill presses. Works fine if you have a mill.

Another hack I saw recently: Someone drilled multiple holes around the perimeter. I assume it was done on some sort of jig because they were relatively well spaced. Balancing did not seem an issue.

@Crankey: The rears do not require centerbore enlarging. The axle nut will clear. Doing all 4 wheels make tire rotation possible. Otherwise, mismatched F/R would require tire removal from the rim for rotations. :lol:

Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:45 am

but if your rims are staggered.... :wink:

Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:59 am

Crankey wrote: but if your rims are staggered.... :wink:

Then there's no point. Machine the fronts and leave the rears alone.

That is unless you've converted your Vanagon to run as a FWD dragster and want fat rims up front and skinnies in the rear. :roll: You're gonna make me CrankEy!

Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:09 am

when using the Audi/VW wheels, an alternative to boring the wheels is to turn the diameter of the discs and dust caps. The benefit is a true hub-centric fit and the ability to just bolt on another set of wheels should you come across them. Also it does not require as big of a lathe to do it on.
I posted a thread showing the dimensions, you can just print it out and bring your rotors and caps to most any machine shop.
Be sure to use the small ball lugs with the Audi/VW wheels as loogy has mentioned in the past. I did have a wheel loosen up because of using the stock vanagon lug nut in the rear.

Andrew-

when using spacers, stick them to the wheels with gasket maker and use the lugs to center them or else your always fighting with them.

I use a Vanagon alloy wheel cap, just cut the tabs off and a small bead of silicon to stick it on the wheel.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:07 am

Cranky, there are obviously a couple of different takes on the subjects you asked about above, but here is mine.

Crankey wrote:
Chris, sounds like you have used them before ? they know the drill (no pun intended) for fitting a Vanagon, i.e bore, depth needed and chamfer ?

No, you will need to tell them what diameter, depth etc. that you want. 66.56mm is what I always tell people to tell them for the diameter. Minimum depth changes with different spacer thicknesses, so this depends on the specific application. With OE wheels, there is usually enough of the original chamfer left to not have to worry about changing it further.

Quote: I've also been wondering lately, what is the deal with the rear hubs ? do they need 66.6 bore too ?

As Ben said, with a staggered set of wheels, there isn't any need to bore the rears. However, when all four wheels are the same, I do recommend boring all four (or five) just in case you need/want to swap them front/rear.

Quote: if one were to have this done, would it be good to have them bored to be hub-centric ? seeing that the Vanagon is not hub centric...? I know some of your spacers have a hubcentric flange, that would mean a gap between the bore and hub so what is the wall thickness on the spacer ? one would need to over-bore the wheel to accommodate that right ?

66.56mm is what I would ask for. There are a few reasons for this. One is that it gives the machinist a specific number to hit. When people walk in and say, "oh, about 66mm should do", this can make the machinist nervous since it sounds like you really aren't sure what you need and if they don't fit, it could land on his shoulders. Requesting 66.56mm lets them know that you know EXACTLY what you want.
Another reason for this dimension is because its a the same as Mercedes. This means that if you ever want to sell your wheels or use them on something other than your Vanagon, you have opened up your audience to the Mercedes crowd and you can install a set of common 66.56/57.1mm hubcentric rings to convert the wheels back to hubcentric for use on VW/Audi applications.
My spacers are designed specifically to use on the Vanagon in conjunction with 66.56mm centerbored wheels. Not only do they fit hubcentric to the front hubs, they also fit hubcentric to a 66.56mm centerbored wheel. All of this centers the wheels and spacers and makes for very easy lug bolt installation since the holes all line up very easily.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:37 pm

awesome ! thank you all for your patients. :)

Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:49 pm

Hey...so I picked up a cutter today from Emerald Tool. it was a 2-3/4 cutter but they ground it down to 66.57+ for me. by my mitutoyo digital caliper it's just over spec. they will grind it down to right on the money if I want.

I tried it out and it cut very nicely. however, I didn't go very far...just like a 1/16-1/8" or so to try it out.

I'm wondering how best to center the wheel in the drill press. should I have a spud made like a 3/4 shank thing with a large cone to drive into the bore to center the rim ?

as it is, the tool is beveled on the edge of the blades and the center bore also has a bevel. I can just deburr the center bore of the wheel so it's free of dings and stuff and chuck up the tool and push the bevels together to center it or I can get more elaborate. I'm not sure I have measuring tools that I can check if I'm on center or not.

my drill chuck has a 3/4" capacity.

Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:56 pm

Crankey,

I've got a few Audi "test" alloys to dial in your process controls.

Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:43 pm

Crankey,

The best way to center the wheel under a drill press would be to put a straight shaft into the chuck with a dial indicator. Adjust the rim until the dial indicator has 0 runout.

An easier way would to chuck a cone into there and then it should center right up.

Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:17 pm

I don't have a dial indicator...yet :lol:
but there is a guy with a small lathe next door who could make me a cone more or less like a lathe center I could stick in the chuck, then swap it out after clamping the rim down.

the trouble with a dial indicator is that used wheels have a bit of corrosion and dings here and there...the lug holes may be scrubbed on and slightly out of round etc. I guess deburring the area with some sandpaper would solve that. I could borrow a dial indicator from the guy next door I think.

Kris, ok cool !