TheSamba.com :: View topic

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:50 am

r39o wrote: theDrew wrote: Oh not this debate again! I thought this was put to rest!
Tempted, so tempted to lock....but hey, I am in the debate too, so it would be poor form. :) :) :)

This thread should be locked. There are several duplicate ongoing threads.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:54 am

Stainless probably outsells aluminum because buyers have not been made aware of the potential problem.

why do vendors sell stainless pipes rather than aluminum? Likely same as above, everyone just assumes it is about the durability of the pipes, not the rest of the aluminum engine parts. marketing. Makes sense for exhaust, why not coolant pipes?

has anyone actually torn down an engine and inspected at least the area around the water pump intake etc? Remember its not about the pipes . . . Inspect the water passages in the heads.

Do you really want to take chances with your expensive heads?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:43 pm

the funny thing is one poster who advocates aluminum pipe also tells us to avoid galvinized pipes, Galvinizing is a zinc plating. it serves as a sacrifical anode and can provide protection to the pipe. Funny that zinc sacrificail anodes are used in the water drain plugs (aftermarket) to help prevent corrosion.

lots of wivestales out there.

Copper is no good, ......yet the factory used it in radiators up to at least 1986, I got about 180 kmiles on the first engine and radiator was still good after those 25 years.

Stainless is no good, .......yet it has been used by many with no bad results for both pipes and cooling system components in the aftermarket.

Galvinizing is no good, ....... Yet, zinc is used at a sacrifical anode to prevent corrosion in our motors, sold aftermarket, with no reports of failures.

compounding the confusion is that there are MANY grades of stainless steel, a statement about the corrosion resistance of stainless or any metal must include discussion of the alloy, surface treatments, heat treatment, and the enviroment it is in contact.

Some grades will be more suitable than others for any application.

I think the bottom line is....

If your worried about corrosion, and cant stand any chance of any amount of it, plastic tube or rubber hoses is best (duh!). Gates Green Stripe brand super tough hose would likely last as long as the van!

any metal pipe can contribute to corrosion, however if regular flushing of a quality coolant is performed, the fresh coolant will minimize corrosion to acceptable levels regardless if you install stainless or aluminum pipes. With the correct fresh coolant, even a bare iron pipe would be ok to use. some metals will cause more rapid depletion of coolant additives than other metals, but so long as you stay ahead of the depletion, you should be fine.

Use of a sacrifical drain plug anode has been reported to help minimize corrosion, I am not aware of any reported down sides to this. Thus use of a zinc drain plug anode may help put you at ease if your worried, I have never tried one in my van.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:05 pm

From that RJES page...
Quote: Steel is a near perfect material for use in a coolant system on an aluminium engine - it's galvanic voltage is 0.85V. Almost identical to that of aluminium. This is why it is used on production cars. Yes, steel corrodes, but from the outside only on an alloy engine.

Right, so with that in mind, we won't ever need to replace those standard OEM plastic pipes, because the mild steel inserts won't corrode, swell, and break out of the ends of the pipes.

Theory, meet reality.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:06 pm

This thread hasn't been locked yet? :shock:
There are already more involved threads on this topic.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:21 pm

syncrodoka wrote: This thread hasn't been locked yet? :shock:
There are already more involved threads on this topic.

Yours and PDX's ... good points.

Likely not locked as the mod who is posting to this thread is involved / has some personal interest ...hmmm.

Same individual who has locked up 'vaguely similar to other topics' threads in the past ... often within 1 or 2 posts.

Not trying to pi$$ anyone off here; a little consistency would be nice.

As the 2 above mentioned posters have mentioned ... this topic has been beaten to death; shocked back to life & beaten again many times in other threads .

So ... next time ... please don't bring up 'wasted bandwidth' issues.

Apparently not.

Everett or Glenn ... someone want to shut this down, Please?

i'm going for a drive with the dogs in my Westy :)

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:38 pm

syncrodoka wrote: This thread hasn't been locked yet? :shock:
There are already more involved threads on this topic.

+3 Lock it already and refer folks to the pre-existing nasty debates on the topic...

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:45 pm

It is not about the durability of the pipes.

My first thought was, yup, why another thread, lock it.
But why is everyone so quick to shut it down?
I really don't get it.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:47 pm

dont lock it is my vote. this is a good post, and is encouraging a nice debate. Lot of neat info here. If you think you dont need this info, or it upsets you to see others carry on a discussion that they never did before, but you have been involved in in the past, then I suggest you ignore it and allow the interested folks to discuss.

this is very interesting.

don't like? don't read it, whats so hard about that?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:09 pm

Why lock it and refer posters to the other threads? Because it is in the rules and a simple search or look in the FAQ will find many threads on the subject.

If you want to dig up a bunch of opinions on the subject they already exist.

It isn't really something that is up for a vote.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:44 pm

All of the aftermarket options have been listed before...buy what you like :!:
Flush your cooling system on a 2 year or less service interval.
Maybe, maybe in 15-20 years one might be able to show some proof that one material is better than another...IMHO.

The only extra tidbit of info worth adding is that I have seen, on my own Syncro van with thickwall stainless steel pipes and all stock plastic parts removed and replaced with stainless....the van will come up to operating temp at idle as normal, but while driving in brutal winter conditions with snow and ice clinging to the underside of the van...it will run cool and use more fuel to try and stay at its operating temp.
This is actually what the ECU should do when it senses cooler coolant.

Since seeing this I have insulated my cooling system and heater lines.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:46 pm

thats interesting about the over cooling with the metal pipes. it is good to know as for me, I am building an air cooled type I 2180 cc kit car and i will be plumbing the front mounted oil cooler with 3/4 inch copper plumbing rigid pipe, run under the car. that I figured would help cool the oil in addition to the empi 96 plate cooler.

Of course corrosion ain't an issue with oil. ' just saying, it is good to know you can get some decent cooling from under the car with metal pipes.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:19 pm

My 85 GL prior to having the stainless pipes had the mild steel pipes in it ( which rotted and was the test platform for the stainless pipes.).
I saw nothing of significant change in the temp gauge reading when I went to the stainless pipes--winter or summer-samo--samo.
Nothing to rant or rave about anyway.

Thinking about the gentleman who is running green striped hose.
It's a little less expensive when your all done.
However, if you don't periodically change that coolant--your going to be seeing plenty of electroletic galvanic corrosion --regardless.

The old coolant is the demon here--not the vessel's carrying it.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:21 pm

There is so much back and forth discussion on this topic and I must ask why?

Galvanic corrosion is a problem with dissimilar metals. We already know that head pitting can be an issue on both original and AMC heads.

Frequent coolant changes does help the issue, but not completely. What about the coolant that seeps under blobs of sealant and sits there stagnant? Not even a coolant change will fix this problem.

If you're worried about corrosion:

1. Use aluminum coolant pipes, or a non metal alternative.
2. Properly seal the heads.
3. Change coolant frequently.

T.K. and others will talk until they are blue that stainless pipes will not cause corrosion, but facts are facts. Galvanic corrosion does in fact exist and the more you think about the small things, the less of a headache you will have down the road.

Scott

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:27 pm

All I have asked from day one is;
SHOW ME.

I'd sure like to see the long term, concrete results, that nobody else here has witnessed, but yet continually posts Voo-Doo reports on.

I'm from Missouri--

I'm going to make a call to the VC tomorrow.
Ask Chris & Pete how many engine failures they have witnessed.
They sell a lot of stainless pipes.
Surely they have had a Van roll in on a hook with an Aluminum Blob that once was an engine.
Compounded x 2 of the pipes I have sold---I had at least 8 years way ahead of them in pipe sales.
I've seen nothing negative either.
If they report nothing--I'm calling all good in love & war, and that's the end of this conversation as far as I'm concerned---

El Finito.

If the propaganda has scared you into a set of aluminum pipes--good for you.
If the propaganda has scared you into a couple of lengths of black rubber hose & some clamps--another good for you.

The stainless is tough, long lasting, and as far back as I can report on there is not one iota of a thing to fear , but fear itself--and some crazy internet postings of Voo Doo happenings to an aluminum block when using stainless for plumbing.
I haven't seen any back up with all of the claims.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:38 pm

How is someone going to show you that the direct cause of a corrosion issue was due to stainless coolant pipes? There's way to many variables.

Are you saying galvanic corrosion doesn't exist?

Are you saying that head pitting is not an issue on WBX heads?

Maybe you could offer a warranty with your pipes against corrosion :D

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:43 pm

Funny thing happend on the way to the forum.

Heads leaked when they sat new on the showroom floor.
Henna pipes.
Heads pitted & leaked using mild steel pipes.
Heads failed & leaked using plastic pipes.
I wouldn't be suprised at all that that stainless pipes will go right along with the flow, and won't stop the heads from leaking either.
Neither will the aluminum pipes---
They'll have post nasal drip just like the rest---

FYI---

It's the nature of the powerplant--the biggest weakness.

So with all that in mind--
Show me a direct result of the preposterous claim's---live , not memorex.

It sure isn't / wasn't the tubing that is causing the problem.

Next ----!!!!

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:48 pm

bluebus86 wrote: any metal pipe can contribute to corrosion, however if regular flushing of a quality coolant is performed, the fresh coolant will minimize corrosion to acceptable levels regardless if you install stainless or aluminum pipes. With the correct fresh coolant, even a bare iron pipe would be ok to use. some metals will cause more rapid depletion of coolant additives than other metals, but so long as you stay ahead of the depletion, you should be fine.
X2

Agree

bluebus86 wrote: Use of a sacrifical drain plug anode has been reported to help minimize corrosion, I am not aware of any reported down sides to this. Thus use of a zinc drain plug anode may help put you at ease if your worried, I have never tried one in my van.
You need to bring one end to close to zero potential via a well conductive path to the system common. In other words you have to ground it well.

There is a nice air bleeding plug on my Burley pipe which I may just stick one of those zinc rods in and then run a wire braid to a nearby chassis point.

For decades now I have seen the good results of these zinc anodes in my favorite classic cars. The engines in these cars cost multiples of what whole Vanagons cost. I know they work and have seen what happens if you do not use them (even with coolant changes.) I am a believer. Just use one, it is not like they are expensive....

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:25 am

Just for the sake on converstaion, and food for thought, even though I have broght this electoletical phenomina up to deaf ears in a few prior posts.

Not one nay sayer of stainless pipes has ever addressed the issue of the spinning water pump shaft or impeller-- bolted up tight right onto that aluminum engine case.

if anything is going to create cavitaion this would be the first place to look at.

I have never seen a blown through hole in any VW engine block created by the water pump spinning impeller or shaft.
And this would be the first place I'd be looking at--
Being that any stainless in a cooling system allegidly creates aluminum failure.

This is one of the reasons I think the claims to stainless = cooling system failures are preposterous, & unwarranted.

I'd still very much like to see
the results of the allegid mass engine cooling system failure's caused by stainless anywhere on any aluminum engine.

Lotta theory--no concrete evidence.

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:29 am

SL12572 wrote: What about the coolant that seeps under blobs of sealant and sits there stagnant?
Scott
Slightly off topic here - but I experienced that (edit-corrosion under and around "gasket") on my Honda water pump (uses a rubber ring gasket) and my thermostat housing (O-ring) on the same motor.

When I saw it, I thought - hmmm, so this must be what happens on the WBX'er head. These were changed along with (timing belt) & coolant at ~90,000 miles/4.5 year invervals. Honda coolant, phosphate free I believe.

However, Dennis Haynes and others have over 200,000+ miles on WBX'er with orignal heads and frequent coolant changes. Perhaps, that's what my Honda needed?