TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:54 am

So I have a Vanagon Westy in my shop right now that I did a bit of rust repair on. The van is virtually rust free but it had the typical rusted out lower corners under the windshield. I've repaired these areas and the very small amount of rust on the floorboard from the resulting water leakage and now it's time to install the window.

The customer's insurance company is sending Safelite out to do the actual install but I don't have much confidence in him. He came out yesterday, and he didn't have the new gasket, even though it was specifically ordered and was back at his shop, but according to him, "they never wear out" :roll: Well it's the original one and it was leaking, so yeah we need a new one, especially since I cut the old one.

He came out this morning and the windshield had a tinted band across the top even though we were very specific about it not having that band, so he's coming back tomorrow with the right windshield supposedly.

I was talking to him about the sealant he uses and he said that they used to use a Butyl sealant on the rubber gaskets but now they use urathene on everything because of company policy.

It's my understanding that the gaskets need the more pliable butyl or similar sealant, and that the urathene sealants are intended for the bond in type windshields without any gaskets. Seems to me the urathene may harden up too much and crack over time. The original failed sealant was very brittle as well.

A couple years ago I replaced the rear windshield in my 65 mustang and it had a similar ruber gasket. I read up on the job and Mustangs monthly did a great write up, and they warned very specificly that the Urathene sealants were the wrong product and they would fail in a short time. That window is still leak free. I would assume that the butyl would work equally as well here.

Anyone have any specific recomendations of sealants that they've used with success? I've heard Sikaflex mentioned, but they make a bunch of products, and I haven't seen a specific part number mentioned for it.

I'm pretty sure I Used a 3m window weld product on my mustang but I can't find the part number. I know most of the window weld products are urathene but I was pretty sure I used a butyl product.

And specific product recomendations would be appreciated.

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:01 pm

The urethane is meant for a glass-to-metal bond. In the case of the Vanagon, it's really a glass-to-EPDM or EPDM-to-metal. So urethane is not the right sealant in my opinion. Also trying to remove a gasket sealed with urethane is going to be a nightmare.

I use this stuff. It is very pliable and gummy, and adheres to anything very well.
http://www.amazon.com/3M-08008-Black-Weatherstrip-Adhesive/dp/B00063X38M

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:24 pm

I think this is what I used, 3m 08509

http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/3m-auto-bedding-glazing-compound-black-08509-p-10389.aspx

Although I thought it was called window weld at the time. Anyone else use this type of stuff?

It may have been this, not a butyl, but a polysulfide. 3m 8606

http://www.janecosales.com/3m8606-window-weldsealerblackcartridge-110gallon.aspx

Isn't the weatherstrip adhesive basically a contact cement?

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:38 pm

mil-prf 81733 two part is what we use on the windshield of n h-60 and i have never seen corrosion where it has been used in a windshield change. if you can get ahold of an equivalent, that is some great stuff 8)

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:42 pm

Use the 3M 08509 with the rubber gasket.

If the crazy glazer shows up with urethane--don't allow him to use it.

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:51 pm

Sikaflex, black.
Not a weep or drip since using this.
I also use this join together multiple window systems found in modern construction.
Great overall sealant.

http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a008/02a008sa01.html

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:58 pm

Insyncro, What type of Sikaflex? That link took me to a list of all there stuff and I believe you can get more than 1 type in black. What type do you use?

Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:13 pm

The glass installer does not inspire a lot of confidence based on his idea that the seal Lasts forever. He is also probably not familiar with the way the seal fixes the glass into the frame by holding onto the pinch weld/flange of the frame itself. It does not rely on an adhesive to hold it in place like on a modern car.

The new seal needs a bit of lube to help install it (armor all etc...), but you would be better off applying a thin bead of butlyl sealant up under the exterior lip of the seal where it lays against the paint. Do this after the seal is in place, after the glass installer is gone.

The hardest part of replacing the windshield on my van was removing all of the old, hard adhesive that was overused the last time the seal was installed.

Good luck with the install.

Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 pm

I have a zero decutable on my westy, I have been putting off getting my windshield replaced due to this same issue, installers here locally don't have a clue, I had setup an install and the glass they ordered had a tinted band and I was very specific to them I wanted clear I then asked how they install the seal and promptly told them not to touch my van.

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Most glass guys are younger that I've ran across. They aren't familiar with the pinch weld seals. Urethane s all they know. If you urethane it in it will be a nightmare to remove. It will need to be painted likely as the radius will be scraped up more than likely. The old soap and rope is the right way to put them in. Not hacking up the seal and urethaning.

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:01 pm

This guys isn't a youngster, think he's in his 50's and he seemed to know better, but he said it was "company policy" to use urathane. He also said that he's the only guy locally who knows how to do the rubber gaskets. He said that they used to use butyl but now the have to use urathane due to safety reasons. Personally if I have to rely on my windshield keeping me in the car, I'm pretty sure I'm screwed either way.

He also said that he refuses to do older mustang windshields or older beetles. "They never will seal right with the gaskets you get these days" Huh? I didn't have any trouble replacing my rear windshield gasket on my mustang. It was messy as hell because i used lots of sealant but it worked out just fine.

Oh well, they have a lifetime warranty against leaks, so if it leaks they'll have to replace it again. The customer doesn't want to pay me extra to do it right since it's already setup. What can you do?

DON'T USE SAFELIGHT!

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:08 pm

Vango Conversions wrote: Insyncro, What type of Sikaflex? That link took me to a list of all there stuff and I believe you can get more than 1 type in black. What type do you use?

I have tried a bunch, but this one is the most available.
They have tiny differences but overall they do the same thing.
I prefer ones that are black.

Sikaflex® 15 LM

Low-modulus, high-performance, 1-component, polyurethane-based, non-sag elastomeric sealant.

Use

Excellent for moving joints in vertical applications.
Suitable for use between similar as well as dissimilar materials.
Typical applications include joints in concrete panel and wall systems, around window and door frames, reglets, flashing, common roofing detail applications, etc.
Exceptional sealant choice for high-rise and facade applications where high movement capability is required.
An effective sealant for use in Exterior Insulation Finish Systems (EIFS).

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:11 pm

Sikaflex is polyurethane. PL premium polyurethane window and door sealant is polyurethane too. I've used both in many applications (but not vanagon window sealing) and both stick like you know what to a blanket, and both provide a great flexible but tight bond. Mind you, there are a few different Sikaflex formulations/varieties.

alistair

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Yup, many different names, many different uses :wink:

Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:03 am

purplepeopleeater wrote: I then asked how they install the seal and promptly told them not to touch my van.

Why what did they tell you about the seal?

Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:23 am

I'm curious to know how he is going to install the seal. Age does not always impart wisdom, and youth does not necessarily dictate its absence

Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:33 am

purplepeopleeater wrote: I have a zero decutable on my westy, I have been putting off getting my windshield replaced due to this same issue, installers here locally don't have a clue, I had setup an install and the glass they ordered had a tinted band and I was very specific to them I wanted clear I then asked how they install the seal and promptly told them not to touch my van.

I have saved every piece of VW glass I have come across, especially windshields.
Yes the new replacements do not fit exactly.
The best to date was a PPG replacement sourced by my local VW dealer.

Any new windshield without the upper tint must be pre ordered, my experience.

I have also seen a few differences in the window rubbers themselves.
I only use the Cali look rubbers, no chrome ones.
The last set I used was ordered from classic parts in Germany and they fit perfectly.

Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:41 am

Just ordered some of this to try:

Wurth Bond & Seal

I will report back.

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:23 am

A few of items of interest--

IF a guy was to purchase high quality glass,& a high quality rubber molding, you wouldn't need any goop to do any winsheild glass sealing.

VW has Vanagon Glass, PPG or LOF is the best, the rubber is another story, and your going to have to do some R&D to figure out what seal is the best fit.

I never hold onto any type of adhesive for a long period of time--it has shelf life--it's limited.

If you have time to wait for an order of XYZ glue--good for you.
How old is the stuff?
I use a local body shop supply a mile down the road that handles 3M adhesives & they turn it over pretty fast.

Fresh is best.

Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing has been around for a long time and produces some of the best adhesives known to man.

If you have on your mind you want to save some money, use some imported, who's know's how old it is adhesive--that's up to you.

But when you have saved nickel's for the glass, rubber mount, and then have to be gluing it in so it doesn't leak--your spinning your wheels.

There is a bunch of garbage glass on the market, there is a bunch of garbage window rubber out there.
You shouldn't need any glue.

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:34 am

Terry Kay wrote:

VW has Vanagon Glass, PPG or LOF is the best, the rubber is another story, and your going to have to do some R&D to figure out what seal is the best fit.

I never hold onto any type of adhesive for a long period of time--it has shelf life--it's limited.

Fresh is best.

You shouldn't need any glue.

Fresh is the best, agreed.

I order directly from the manufacturers.
This is why I listed all of the Sika products....see what is in your local stores...and YES, ask how old it is.

As far as using a sealant, TK is correct that no sealant is needed in a perfect fitting world....I have not found such a world and seal up my vans with all sorts of goop, thats me.