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Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:10 pm

anyone used this yet? any good? I assume it functions similar to a Megajolt setup.

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:11 pm

If you mean JayCee he only makes top quality stuff.

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:58 pm

Yes Dave, that is correct.

It looks like his system utilizes a distributor design instead of a coil pack. It seems like a good, well designed setup...I can't find any feedback on it.

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:24 pm

The whole concept of "crank fire" is to get away for any vagaries
that a distributor may cause...

Running a "crank trigger" with a distributor is sort of a oxymoron....

Only real use for a distributor with crank fire would be to lock advance and have it only put out a pulse as #1 goes TDC so ECU can determine where it is during engine cycle(s) to generate ignition or fuel pulses for sequential ignition or for fuel injection... It would no longer be a "distributor" but more of a "cam position" sensor...

Distributor and crank fire are basically "mutually exclusive" of each other....

The latest trends is to use COP (coil on plug) or wasted spark which only requires a coil connected to spark plug and controlled by ecu...

Dale

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:38 pm

Dale M. wrote: Running a "crank trigger" with a distributor is sort of a oxymoron.... Distributor and crank fire are basically "mutually exclusive" of each other....

Not really. The distributor is just sending the spark to the right place. Has zippo to do with spark accuracy, but it will result is some small loss of spark power as the electrons flow from point A to point B. My buddy has a bracket car with crank trigger and distributor. When I asked him why, it was because his MSD pickup only has 4 magnets in it. That means the ECU doesn't know where the engine is at in it's cycle, it only knows what speed it's at and therefore how much advance it should be applying. Phase the distributor, and you're good.

Quote: The latest trends is to use COP (coil on plug) or wasted spark which only requires a coil connected to spark plug and controlled by ecu.

Not everyone has this option, see above. It's a good middle ground for supporting legacy equipment, while still achieving a good bump in sparking accuracy for little cost. Most V8 racers are still wedded to their MSD high output parts anyway, so getting them to convert to the dark side is sometimes like pulling teeth. I did get my buddy to convert to EFI eventually, and it was like a light shining out of the darkness for him. You'd think he'd also see the light with COP's, but that Digital 7 costs some bucks... Not so quick to dump that stuff when what they got already works fine.

Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:59 pm

The JayCee crank-fire kit is intended for race-only applications. There are no provisions for centrifugal (or vacuum) advance. You either accept that the timing is locked (which is not an issue for a drag car, other than starting it...and timing retard modules are available for this application), or you need to buy an ignition box featuring a programmable ignition curve to accompany the crank-fire kit.

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:38 pm

Stripped66 wrote: The JayCee crank-fire kit is intended for race-only applications. There are no provisions for centrifugal (or vacuum) advance. You either accept that the timing is locked (which is not an issue for a drag car, other than starting it...and timing retard modules are available for this application), or you need to buy an ignition box featuring a programmable ignition curve to accompany the crank-fire kit.

And with good "BOX" with programmable ignition curve (maybe Megasquirt with extra codes) eliminates the need for any distributor no matter what miniman82 says (and NOT to minimize his comments for they are valid in some cases)... IF new ground up build and no major investment in legacy MSD or other spark boxes.... Cop or wasted spark is so much more simpler....

It all depends on what you are looking for in way of performance..

Dale

Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:43 pm

Never been a fan of wasted spark ignition systems. Why would you want to fire the plug on an exhaust cycle?. That was created for cost issues in manufacturing, not in the name of performance. Sequential or single fire systems will always run smoother. In a Vw, it seems as tho the low life distributor is the cam sensor in modern crank fired ignition systems. What other cam sensors are there?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:54 pm

Here is a link to a very neat cam sensor setup for sequential ignition without a distributor.
http://ub-52.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/blog-post.html

Is there any data as to whether wasted spark looses any power up to say 7000 rpm compared to sequential spark

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:36 am

There is no reason for there to be any sort of loss in power with wasted spark. Firing into the exhaust cycle does nothing to the performance. The advantage to wasted spark is the the fact that your using 2 coils instead of one. This allows the coils to have more time to charge, thus a making a more aggressive spark.

Mr. Smitty, The JayCee solution is not what you need.

Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:37 am

Chip, you have found that those Megajolt setups like the one on your engine, work better? (at least my engine?)

I was doing research on some of the kits out there. CBs looks decent. Jack's looks good but more simple to setup!

Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:13 am

Chip B. wrote: There is no reason for there to be any sort of loss in power with wasted spark. Firing into the exhaust cycle does nothing to the performance. The advantage to wasted spark is the the fact that your using 2 coils instead of one. This allows the coils to have more time to charge, thus a making a more aggressive spark.

Mr. Smitty, The JayCee solution is not what you need.

X2

IIRC, the Jay Cee kit is not a 36-1 system, just four teeth on the wheel to tell it when to trigger (just like a set of point or other distributor pickup would do). To try to get an ECU to trigger an ignition map off four teeth would not work well at all (if it's even possible?).

And also on the wasted spark, no performance loss due to it. I've had my car idle at 450rpm with wasted spark, and spin up to 9300rpm. No issues.

Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:07 am

smitty24 wrote: Chip, you have found that those Megajolt setups like the one on your engine, work better? (at least my engine?)

I was doing research on some of the kits out there. CBs looks decent. Jack's looks good but more simple to setup!

replacing a distributor with 4 tower coil is about as simple as it gets....

Look at Megasquirt (extra) Spark "A' and Spark "B" (4 cylinder wasted spark) or Megajolt (ignition only) and get CB performance 2092 Crank trigger kit....

Or if you want the ignition only package look at CB-P Magnaspark

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1890

Simplicity is getting rid of distributor (in any form) ....

Dale

Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:59 am

Eaallred wrote: To try to get an ECU to trigger an ignition map off four teeth would not work well at all (if it's even possible?

Course it's possible, read my last post (and the MS manual). MSD digital 7 works that way, but like I said you still need a distributor to make sure the spark arrives at the right cylinder and it has to be indexed correctly or crossfiring will occur. Usually when you build a setup like that with a locked distributor, a somewhat longer contact arm is required on the rotor because you will be dealing with about 24* of timing change. So the rotor has to remain on the same cylinder, regardless of ignition timing. It usually means you spot weld a longer electrode onto one side.