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Wed May 30, 2012 1:21 pm

Looking to run new hard line in my project and want to terminate the ends with AN fittings. Was wondering if there is a preferred type of fitting to use at the end or if it is more of an art than a science. Any thoughts? Something like this:

Tube nut // Tube sleeve // ============ Steel hard line ============ Tube sleeve // Tube nut

The hoses at the ends connecting the hard lines to the fuel pump, FPR, etc. would be flexible and I could use any type of adapter there. Is this a good way to do it or should I get fancy swivel ends for the hard line side instead? Or something else?

Was going to buy these if this is the way everyone else does it:

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/110382/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/110392/10002/-1

System will use fuel injection so pressure is a concern too but I think this will handle it. Will be using galvanized zinc steel line. Just a noob with these type of fittings.

Thanks for any help!

Wed May 30, 2012 1:36 pm

Someone will pipe in shortly saying not to use aluminum fittings on steel pipe because the aluminum is softer than the steel so you won't get a good "bite" you'd be better off with aluminum lines. I've used the Jegs brand fittings with braided lines before with good results.

Wed May 30, 2012 1:39 pm

wompninja wrote: Someone will pipe in shortly saying not to use aluminum fittings on steel pipe because the aluminum is softer than the steel so you won't get a good "bite" you'd be better off with aluminum lines. I've used the Jegs brand fittings with braided lines before with good results.

I would use aluminum line, but from my research and all the people I have talked to it does not have the burst strength required for the pressure of fuel injection (base pressures around 40psi).

If steel fitting work better I can use steel fittings, not a big deal.

Mostly just interested to know if these would be the best type/shape/format fittings to use to terminate the long runs of hard line or if I should use some other of fitting (like a swivel, a male instead of female, etc). I won't be installing the flex-lines at the end until much later, just trying to get the first part right.

Wed May 30, 2012 2:33 pm

adamscottmartin wrote: I would use aluminum line, but from my research and all the people I have talked to it does not have the burst strength required for the pressure of fuel injection (base pressures around 40psi).

No, 3/8 aluminum fuel line (0.035 wall) is good to 2600 PSI. If you use unflared tube adapters they're usually only good to about 50 PSI before they want to pull apart. The flared fittings you want to use will take far more pressure than your fuel pump can produce.

Wed May 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Wait for Eric(Hotrodvw) to reply. Fitting are what he does.

Wed May 30, 2012 2:49 pm

I bought a very good flare tool to do AN flares from Ridgid, it was about $140. My main fuel lines teminate in Male bulkhead fittings and then swivel fittings for the hose. If done propperly and cleanly the line steel or aluminum should seal no matter what fittings you use. Clean, square cuts, then deburr the line before oyu flare it will give a nice clean end The sleeve goes on before the nut.

brad

Wed May 30, 2012 3:50 pm

slalombuggy wrote: I bought a very good flare tool to do AN flares from Ridgid, it was about $140. My main fuel lines teminate in Male bulkhead fittings and then swivel fittings for the hose. If done propperly and cleanly the line steel or aluminum should seal no matter what fittings you use. Clean, square cuts, then deburr the line before oyu flare it will give a nice clean end The sleeve goes on before the nut.

brad

Though nut would have to go on first....

Dale

Wed May 30, 2012 4:26 pm

It would be good if someone could post some pix on different fitting used, such as bulkheads, swivels, banjos, etc.

Thu May 31, 2012 7:14 am

slalombuggy wrote: I bought a very good flare tool to do AN flares from Ridgid, it was about $140. My main fuel lines teminate in Male bulkhead fittings and then swivel fittings for the hose. If done propperly and cleanly the line steel or aluminum should seal no matter what fittings you use. Clean, square cuts, then deburr the line before oyu flare it will give a nice clean end The sleeve goes on before the nut.

brad

Thanks Brad. I think I will be using the bulkhead fittings for sure on the front since there is a nice mounting point. But on the back it would be impossible to do running it through the frame horns like stock. Did you run yours out of the tunnel near the shift linkage? Any pics or descriptions of how you mounted those on the rear?

Thu May 31, 2012 9:33 am

Sorry Dale is right the nut goes on the tube first then the sleeve, then flare the tube.

My rear bulkhead fitting terminates in the plate I used to rais the rear torsion housing 3 inches. I used a 90* bulkhead fitting iin the front ot come out hte top of hte tunnel. You might be able to use one in one of the back frame horns if you pull it out closer to the torsion housing. You could also just weld a tab onto the frame horn to mount a bulkhead fitting to. Nothing fancy just a tab with the right size hole.

For fittings go to the Pacific Customs web site. They have A LOT of fittings That's wher I got my specialty ones for my carbs and a couple other things.

brad

Thu May 31, 2012 10:22 am

Here's an example.
This is 1/2" steel tube.

In the hydraulic world, AN (Army/Navy) fittings are referred to as JIC, having a 37* flare.
SAE fittings, on the other hand, have a 45* flare.

These guys are great:
http://fittingsandadapters.com/steelflarad3.html
http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Steel_Fittings_Adapters_s/21.htm

Good luck, Mondshine

Thu May 31, 2012 11:16 am

Thanks all, good information. Will try to post back pictures when I make some progress so that future VW'ers can see i for reference.

Thu May 31, 2012 12:18 pm

mondshine wrote: In the hydraulic world, AN (Army/Navy) fittings are referred to as JIC, having a 37* flare.

They are not the same though. JIC fittings have 40% less fatigue strength and 10% less shear strength than AN fittings due to different thread tolerances. Cheap fittings are most likely just JIC even if listed as AN if they don't specify the MIL-F-5509 spec or UNJF-3A/3B thread class.

But you can certainly thread a JIC and AN fitting together and JIC fittings shouldn't have any problems in an automotive application.

Thu May 31, 2012 12:59 pm

jhoefer wrote: mondshine wrote: In the hydraulic world, AN (Army/Navy) fittings are referred to as JIC, having a 37* flare.

They are not the same though. JIC fittings have 40% less fatigue strength and 10% less shear strength than AN fittings due to different thread tolerances. Cheap fittings are most likely just JIC even if listed as AN if they don't specify the MIL-F-5509 spec or UNJF-3A/3B thread class.

But you can certainly thread a JIC and AN fitting together and JIC fittings shouldn't have any problems in an automotive application.

I have to wonder why the hell we're puting 6k psi to JIC fittings EVERY DAY if they're inferior to cough aluminum cough.

Thu May 31, 2012 1:03 pm

adamscottmartin wrote: Looking to run new hard line in my project and want to terminate the ends with AN fittings. Was wondering if there is a preferred type of fitting to use at the end or if it is more of an art than a science. Any thoughts? Something like this:

Tube nut // Tube sleeve // ============ Steel hard line ============ Tube sleeve // Tube nut

The hoses at the ends connecting the hard lines to the fuel pump, FPR, etc. would be flexible and I could use any type of adapter there. Is this a good way to do it or should I get fancy swivel ends for the hard line side instead? Or something else?

Was going to buy these if this is the way everyone else does it:

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/110382/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/110392/10002/-1

System will use fuel injection so pressure is a concern too but I think this will handle it. Will be using galvanized zinc steel line. Just a noob with these type of fittings.

Thanks for any help!

OK....... Aluminum tubing will work just dandy, and allow you to use them cool little compression fittin's from Jeg's or whom ever. The ferrule in the fittin' need to be equal to or harder than the tube it's biting in to. This is the rule of thumb for any compression fitting set up. My choice is to flare the tube, and use threaded fittin's. If you can weld, you can rnu steel or ss tube and weld on male AN/JIC spuds, then use the typical fem. swivel hose fitting to attach to it. This will help to eliminate extra fittings that aren't necessary.

Thu May 31, 2012 1:25 pm

Hotrodvw wrote: jhoefer wrote: mondshine wrote: In the hydraulic world, AN (Army/Navy) fittings are referred to as JIC, having a 37* flare.

They are not the same though. JIC fittings have 40% less fatigue strength and 10% less shear strength than AN fittings due to different thread tolerances. Cheap fittings are most likely just JIC even if listed as AN if they don't specify the MIL-F-5509 spec or UNJF-3A/3B thread class.

But you can certainly thread a JIC and AN fitting together and JIC fittings shouldn't have any problems in an automotive application.

I have to wonder why the hell we're puting 6k psi to JIC fittings EVERY DAY if they're inferior to cough aluminum cough.

It's not a steel vs aluminum comparison. It's steel vs steel, alum vs alum, etc. You can make AN fittings out of aluminum, copper, steel, or titanium. All those materials are defined in the spec. The thread differences make the AN fittings stronger and last longer in a high vibration environment vs a comparable JIC fitting.

Thu May 31, 2012 1:45 pm

jhoefer wrote: Hotrodvw wrote: jhoefer wrote: mondshine wrote: In the hydraulic world, AN (Army/Navy) fittings are referred to as JIC, having a 37* flare.

They are not the same though. JIC fittings have 40% less fatigue strength and 10% less shear strength than AN fittings due to different thread tolerances. Cheap fittings are most likely just JIC even if listed as AN if they don't specify the MIL-F-5509 spec or UNJF-3A/3B thread class.

But you can certainly thread a JIC and AN fitting together and JIC fittings shouldn't have any problems in an automotive application.

I have to wonder why the hell we're puting 6k psi to JIC fittings EVERY DAY if they're inferior to cough aluminum cough.

It's not a steel vs aluminum comparison. It's steel vs steel, alum vs alum, etc. You can make AN fittings out of aluminum, copper, steel, or titanium. All those materials are defined in the spec. The thread differences make the AN fittings stronger and last longer in a high vibration environment vs a comparable JIC fitting.

Fine, but I don't buy it. Back on topic!

Thu May 31, 2012 3:43 pm

I've used the flare tube, sleeve, and nut to AN fitting method on smaller stainless brake lines, also 1/2" aluminum hard lines, but never on large stainless steel hardlines. A buddy had some (free) .055 wall stainless leftover from a high pressure steam job, that was probably not going to flare without cracking. So I opted to buy some weld-on fittings instead. Those weld on fittings were less expensive than steel nut and sleeve in -8 size, I think I paid $4 for each weld on end, and the welding was just labor.

Here's that option recently employed on my never ending fastback racecar project

After dealing with leaky stainless braided line that was run through the tunnel about 12 years ago, I decided to go with hardline this time. I purchased the stainless steel AN end fittings, and welded them to the end of .055 wall 1/2" diameter stainless hard line.

View from the passenger side, looking at the tunnel. Hard to photograph after I put the tank back in, but the tubes are welded to the AN fittings, and the fitting hexes welded to the tunnel where both penetrate.

View from inside the car looking aft. Some of the tin has been removed to gain access. The stainless tubes were routed out the top of the tunnel, where the shift coupler would normally be, then allowed to 'float' a little by securing them with cushion clamps. We pressure tested the welded fitting joints to 80psi before installing them.