TheSamba.com :: View topic - Turn signal relay woes! (PXL to 31, 49, 49a)

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:39 am

On my 68 my hazards are working great all four flash. My right turn signals work great front and bacK . I have nothing on the left!

So I figured the relay is shot. I buy a new 3 prong relay with terminals 31, 49 and 49a.

I have found doing searches in the forum that what is on the car is a "cheap PXL relay".

I have tried every combinaiton of wires to get this to work and I get nothing. Wiring and electricity are not my strong point at all!

On the PXL relay I have the following wires going to the terminals:

P - blue and green wire (runs to the speedo light)

X - 2 wires - one solid blue and one black and white wire (not sure where they go)

L - one thicker black wire (I found in the forums that this is the load)

Can anyone tell me where I need to connect these wires to the new relay? The new relay is a german one made by a company named Kraecker. Not sure if that matters or not.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:53 am

I had a similar problem. Turned out to be a bad ground.
Easy way to check that is to take your bulb out and check it with a test light. If it works, your ground is the problem.
If it doesn't then you gotta trace it from the fuse box.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:01 am

this may help til someone else chimes in.

http://www.oldvolkshome.com/6870turnswitcht1_OVH.pdf

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:03 am

P is Pilot (Kbl - dash light)
X is a "+" turned 45 degrees. (49, Power in, routed from the e-flasher switch terminal +)
L is Load (49a, to the e-flasher switch and the turn switch)

This is an ungrounded relay, so no connection for ground (31) like on factory relays.

I'm surprised yours even flashed with the P hooked up to the dash light.
"P" and "Kbl" work differently... By any chance, is the dash arrow light a plastic bulbholder with two terminals on it?

In this diagram, on which the pathways are correct for mid 1968 and later, but the colors may vary a little, 49 is shown as a white wire, but it's probably black on yours.

black/white wire? That does not sound like a correct wire color.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:03 am

Nothing is working with the new relay. Everything but right side turn signals are working with the old relay.

I am sure it is a ground issue since I read somehting about the PXL relay doesn't have a ground and that terminal 31 on the new relay is ground.

Like I said I am horrible with wiring and electricity! I guess my high school electronics class didn't really stick!

Thanks,

Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:16 am

glutamodo wrote:

I'm surprised yours even flashed with the P hooked up to the dash light.
"P" and "Kbl" work differently... By any chance, is the dash arrow light a plastic bulbholder with two terminals on it?

Was this for Autosticks?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:19 am

Glutamodo,

Here is a pic with the PXL relay hooked up. You can see the black and white wire that I am talking about.

So where should I hook up the four wires that I have to the new relay?

I looked at the photo you posted and I have no idea what I am looking at!

Thanks,

Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:20 am

this happened to me and it turned out to be a loose fuse. Make sure they are all making contact. Good luck!

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:22 am

Glutamodo,

The bulb older on the back of the speedo is just a single terminal. Sorry I forgot to say that in my last post!

Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:54 am

I see you have a black / white with the blue on the L

where is the Black / green wire? I was thinking that went to 49a

31 should be a ground wire. ( brown )

49 is power in (black)

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:54 pm

NCdad wrote: glutamodo wrote:

I'm surprised yours even flashed with the P hooked up to the dash light.
"P" and "Kbl" work differently... By any chance, is the dash arrow light a plastic bulbholder with two terminals on it?

Was this for Autosticks?

No, all bugs. I asked about it because you'd need a bulb that had a ground on the other side of it to work right. The PXL flasher relay with a "P" - has no ground, as the relay is not grounded. It supplies an open, +, open, + signal. The stock dash bulb is not grounded, it's the opposite of that, it is supplied a positive signal (terminal 15), so a pulsating + to it would not make it come on.

Old VW relays supply a ground, open, ground, open signal WHEN THERE IS A DEDICATED KBL terminal, that is. Originally, in the early 60s, then again from mid 68 to 71/72 and thru 74 on Things, VW used a 4-terminal flasher with 49,49a,31 and Kbl (or their equivalents, and the 6Vs had to ground via their mounting so no dedicated 31 terminal, although they had to be mounted to a good ground to work properly)

This is what a that 4-terminal flasher looked like internally. The diagram I previously posted was in response to the inquiry about the replacement 3 terminal flasher. This is how it originally was. There are two contacts ganged together inside, one for the KBL dash arrow light, and you can see it leads to 31 (ground) and nowhere (open) in the other position.

And on that style 4-terminal relay, if the extra Kbl contacts go bad, but the other ones still work good, you can just move the wire to the dash bulb over to 49a and it'll work - the difference being that the dash arrow will no longer flash in tandem with the outside lights, it will flash in opposite of it, as it grounds through the very low resistance of the turn signals of the car instead of an actual direct ground.

-Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:07 pm

you seem to answer this alot...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5479523&highlight=#5479523

appreciate the lessons

here is the 4 prong flasher relay

from top to bottom: 49a, 49, KBL, 31

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:10 pm

Now I am really confused. Do I need to go get a 4 prong relay?

Like I have said before wiring is not my strong point.

I tried this...

P is Pilot (Kbl - dash light)
X is a "+" turned 45 degrees. (49, Power in, routed from the e-flasher switch terminal +)
L is Load (49a, to the e-flasher switch and the turn switch)

... I got nothing. I didn't hook the dash light to anything since I have no Kbl.

After I tried this I made a ground wire and ran it from 31 to a ground spot and still nothing.

I need someone to break this down for me big crayon style; like put this wire on this terminal etc...

Thanks,

Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:22 pm

Pilot is dash light on an AMERICAN car, not on a VW. I was just explaining what the letters stand for, with the appropriate use of a PXL flasher.

On a VW, with a PXL relay you don't use the P terminal. You just use the X and the L. Plus and Load. (as I was saying before, the P would for the dash light if you had an isolated bulbholder that was grounded on the other side, not a stock VW one that has + on the other side of it.) You would then connect the dash light to the L side as well.

I won't use XL and PXL relays myself, they don't light up outside the car at first, the dash arrow comes on first and, depending on the relay, can take a while to "warm up" before it starts to flash outside the car. I prefer it so my lights start flashing outside the car right away when I hit the turn lever. VW/Euro-spec flasher relays that are grounded don't do that, they light up outside first.

By the way, are you sure your turn switch is working? If you just eliminate the flasher relay entirely, hook the 49 and 49a wires together, and turn the ignition on, you should be able to hit Left and Right and then the bulbs will simply just turn on.

-Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:28 pm

Wouldn't my turn switch have to be working if it works with the PXL relay? I will try hooking 49 and 49a together to see if the lights light up, if I can figure out which wires are 49 and 49a!! LOL!!

Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:25 pm

Oh, I thought you said you put your old relay back in there and it wasn't working when you said this:

Quote: I tried this...

P is Pilot (Kbl - dash light)
X is a "+" turned 45 degrees. (49, Power in, routed from the e-flasher switch terminal +)
L is Load (49a, to the e-flasher switch and the turn switch)

... I got nothing.

Well, I'm not sure, maybe you got a bum relay. Know anyone with a 72-98 VW? You can swap that relay for the one in their car to test. The relays got shorter in height over time but they still functioned the same throughout that period.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:12 pm

glutamodo,

I tried your trick with putting 49 and 49a together and I only had lights on one side!

I noticed that the bulb was not seated all the way so I pushed it in and tried the signals again, hoping it would do something, which it did not. But when I put just the slightest forward pressure on the signal lever when pushing it down my left blinkers worked. This is with the old relay.

I gues I have it figured out. Now every time when I push the lever with sligth forward pressure I have left signals! I guess something is amiss in the switch! I will just roll with it like that until it totally craps out!!

Thanks everyone for the help!!

Andy

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:58 pm

tombdaddy482 wrote: On my 68 my hazards are working great all four flash. My right turn signals work great front and bacK . I have nothing on the left!

Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

Andy

The symptoms indicate the turn signal switch is defective or disconnected from the left common connection. The hazard relay bypasses the turn signal switch and connects the left signals, right signals, and flasher together. The hazard system was working.

Edited to add: Looks like you figured that out. :)