TheSamba.com :: View topic

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:35 am

What are some signs of a bad condensor? I am trying to diagnose a problem and started thinking about the condensor. Would/could the engine run at all if it were bad? Ive never had one fail that I know of but I usually replace them often with teh points and when I do a tune up. So, what are the symptoms of a bad condensor?

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:14 am

The ignition will break up, misfires, stalling, eventually it dies. We always replaced the condensors with the points, 'cause it all used to be cheap, now I see a big increase in prices of both.

brad

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:28 am

Interesting. Could be part of my problem but I can get my bus to idle great and stay idling all day if I wanted but as soon as I start to give it gas its starts misfiring badly and backfiring. If the condensor was bad, would/could it idle at all?

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:17 am

My bug died on the side of the road about a year ago. I was baffled for about 30 minutes until I noticed my condensor hanging by the wire from the coil. It had fallen off the distributor. After a piece of duct tape I was home ordering a set of electronic replacements. It never gave me any signs, just fell off. No problems since. It just made me think of something though. I am traveling around with a set of points for back up. I don't think it will help without a condenser! :shock: :oops: Can anyone else admitt to this?

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:27 am

Electronic ignition modules cure condenser problems...

Dale

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:36 am

Pull the distributor cap and have someone crank over the motor. If you see a bunch of arcing across the points, the condenser is bad. The condensers job is prevent arcing of the points, which can cause irregular or failure of spark across the spark plugs.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:37 am

If the points turn green/ yellow the condenser is going bad..

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:44 am

Woody Gee wrote: Pull the distributor cap and have someone crank over the motor. If you see a bunch of arcing across the points, the condenser is bad. The condensers job is prevent arcing of the points, which can cause irregular or failure of spark across the spark plugs.

Interesting. If this were occuring in my engine, this sounds like it could be happening based on how it is running. I will do that test today.

Quote: Jake Raby

If the points turn green/ yellow the condenser is going bad..

While running or just turn a constant green/yellow?

Quote: Electronic ignition modules cure condenser problems...

Dale

On my list of eventual to-do's but I cant swing it right now.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:12 am

jtwaller wrote: My bug died on the side of the road about a year ago. I was baffled for about 30 minutes until I noticed my condensor hanging by the wire from the coil. It had fallen off the distributor. After a piece of duct tape I was home ordering a set of electronic replacements. It never gave me any signs, just fell off. No problems since. It just made me think of something though. I am traveling around with a set of points for back up. I don't think it will help without a condenser! :shock: :oops: Can anyone else admitt to this?

same exact thing happened to me as well. car started to run really rough, no power, sputtering, pulled off the freeway, it died, wouldnt restart. screwed condenser back on, good to go.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:30 am

How a condenser works. In the ignition coil is two separate windings of wire around a central metal core. The primary winding is part of a circuit from the battery through the ignition key to the coil, out of the coil to the points to ground and back to the battery, a complete circuit. The secondary winding is a larger (more windings) core of wire inside the coil which is grounded in the coil at one end and the other end comes out of the top of the coil where the spark plug type wire goes to the distributor, which times the spark to each spark plug wire, then to the plug, across the plug gap to ground and back to the coil, a completed circuit.

Key on, points closed creates a magnetic field in the coil. Points open, breaks the circuit, and field collapses. This collapsing of the magnetic field creates voltage in the secondary winding, the more it collapses and the faster it collapses the bigger the spark at the spark plug.

This collapsing magnetic field also creates voltage in the primary winding to the point enough voltage is available to jump the point gap which at this points may be only open .0001". If we get a jump across the point gap then we have completed the primary circuit again and are attempting to rebuild the magnetic field in the coil and prevent it from collapsing. This might happen many, many times in one spark event.

The condenser is sorta like a electrical bucket is that it stores the voltage created in the primary winding during the magnetic field collapse in the coil and then discharges the stored voltage when the points close and gets ready to do the whole thing again. By storing the voltage, it prevents an arc across the points and allows the magnetic field to collapse as fast as possible for the best possible spark at the plugs. A lot of things are going on at this time. I tried to give the simple version.

A condenser stores voltage not unlike a battery. They come in sizes like buckets come in gallon sizes. You can "tune" an points ignition system by sizing the condenser but is probably not worth the effort.

I hope this helps a few folks a bit. If not let's blame the whole explanation on senility.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:50 am

Ive had 2 condensers fail over the years and thats exactly what it did it would idle fine but as soon as you increased the rpm it would spit and sputter and backfire.

I would suggest replacing it to at least rule it out as the problem.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:02 am

dan97019 wrote: Ive had 2 condensers fail over the years and thats exactly what it did it would idle fine but as soon as you increased the rpm it would spit and sputter and backfire.

I would suggest replacing it to at least rule it out as the problem.

This is promising. I will be replacing the points, condensor, cap and rotor today. Im starting to think possibly the coil is playing a part in it but will start with these items.

And Woody, that is a great explanation. It sure helped me.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:28 am

ok, so I took the cap off. While cranking via the starter (remote starter) with key on, there is definately sparking between the points contacts. Bad condensor based on the quote below, right? Ill be off soon to pick up points, condensor and cap/rotor either way though. There is hope for me....

Quote: Woody Gee Posted: Today 8:36 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pull the distributor cap and have someone crank over the motor. If you see a bunch of arcing across the points, the condenser is bad. The condensers job is prevent arcing of the points, which can cause irregular or failure of spark across the spark plugs.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:23 pm

I would like to say that it's cheap enough to just pick up a new set of points & a condenser... however that may not be the case anymore (the cheap part).

Sure would be an easy fix though. Making sure those parts are good (as well as the coil) is a good starting point to troubleshooting other issues.

Even if you do make the switch to say a Pertronix... I would carry the parts to swap it back, just in case. Don't want to be stranded :)

Good luck!

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:25 pm

Yup, just like everyone said carry an extra pair. I never went electronic I still rock the blue coil and points

Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:28 am

Yes, normally I do carry spares of points, condensor etc. For some reason though, I could not find any in my temporary garage/storage area.

Anyway, it was a combo of problems that all built up to one frustrated me. After fixing the condensor, it still ran crappy (better, but still crappy). I tested the vacuum again and was not getting much. For now, i have switched to an 009 vs my stock vacuum distributor and guess what, it runs freaking amazing. Im running dual IDF's so I guess the vacuum was not enough for my distributor (It was very eratic when I tested it). I am going to run the 009 (I know, I know) until my patience builds up again to look at my og distributor or until I go SVDA or until the wife gets off my case about the $$$ ive spent to get this bus running. As always, thanks everyone for the help. I took the bus out with the new motor for the first time and it runs amazing (finally) other than the fact it sounds like it has a turbo on it. I think the pulley might be rubbing slightly which will get fixed today.

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:47 am

it can, snap ,pop,fart,backfire,run ok, not run, run bad, run good & bad, drop cylinders,give you a headache. if you must run points, and you have a known good condensor(not new,but good)keep it in the car as a spair or mount it on the dist as a spair.I put mallory condensor on my boat after omc (evenrude/jhonson) had a batch of bad condensors about 20 years ago.the brass cased mallory is still on the motor. it was for a v8.I dont care what the condensor is for it will work, weather it ia a v8 v10 v12 or 4cyl, they do the same thing(other voltages may infact be different, but I think it should still work to get you home)I have heard somy guys say the condensor is "tuned to the car type" what a crock, yes there are different microfreds(and possiably small barnys too) but they do the same thing for the same part at pretty close to the same voltage. as far as turning green I think that may of been some copper or brass in the system, doubt it was the condensor. I dont think I own any thing with points any more but that 43 year old boat motor(sold boat 2 months ago with big motor on it, 2x as big)so I dont wory much about it.any more. if you do a yearly tuneup and everything looks good but your changing stuff any way keep the old stuff.(and search for very old nos stuff it may be a lot better, or not)

Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:29 pm

If you are running a Vacuum distributor check the points plate ground, I looked for the reason a buddy car was running so bad untill I found the ground wire was broke. It was getting a good ground at idle but once the plate move it lost its ground.

Casey

Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:19 am

you can also put a dwell meter on it and pull vac and see if the dwell changes.I remember some of the fords was on a pivot and changed a lot and when things wore you had a problem.I have never messed with a vw vac addvance dist at all other than holding&looking at the orientation of the drive, so I dont have a clue as to how it addvances with vac,but even a rotating plate can wear &change the dwell.go electronic and no wories.