TheSamba.com :: View topic - Flipped front torsion bar.... Am i screwed?

Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:10 pm

So. I just spent the last 2 days putting the entire front suspension back together with mostly new components, including the beam, and reusing the original torsion bars. When i reinstalled the torsion bars i noticed that they were twisted (assuming from years of use.) So I, in my infinite wisdom, decided to install them with the twist going against the movement of the torsion arms. I simply flipped them left to right (not upside down, the set screw indents are all still lined up, I hope that makes sense.) This, i figured, would perhaps negate the twist that occurred over years of use. However, now that i have everything back together, the front of the bus is jacked way up. So much that the top torsion arm is constantly in contact with the bump stop even when sitting still.

Did i screw myself? Do i have to take the ENTIRE front suspension apart again only to flip the bars over? Or will it settle out? I put new ball joints in so it will need an alignment. But i don't want to pay for an alignment only to rip it all apart again! I am leaving on a 2000 mile road trip in 5 days, there is NO interior back in it yet and i won't be able to work on it this weekend. F My Life.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:18 pm

MidWesty79 wrote: So. I just spent the last 2 days putting the entire front suspension back together with mostly new components, including the beam, and reusing the original torsion bars. When i reinstalled the torsion bars i noticed that they were twisted (assuming from years of use.) So I, in my infinite wisdom, decided to install them with the twist going against the movement of the torsion arms. I simply flipped them left to right (not upside down, the set screw indents are all still lined up, I hope that makes sense.) This, i figured, would perhaps negate the twist that occurred over years of use. However, now that i have everything back together, the front of the bus is jacked way up. So much that the top torsion arm is constantly in contact with the bump stop even when sitting still.

Did i screw myself? Do i have to take the ENTIRE front suspension apart again only to flip the bars over? Or will it settle out? I put new ball joints in so it will need an alignment. But i don't want to pay for an alignment only to rip it all apart again! I am leaving on a 2000 mile road trip in 5 days, there is NO interior back in it yet and i won't be able to work on it this weekend. F My Life.

You are screwed, but why not gamble? If the majority of driving is going to occur with a passenger, you can see if road attitude is acceptable with the ballast of two people up front. These cars settle pretty quickly with people up front.

The greater risk here, is that torsion bars are more likely to fracture if used opposite to their memory, but leaves may be more forgiving.
Colin

(p.s get your alignment done with someone (big) sitting in it throughout the procedure)

Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:58 pm

Amskeptic wrote: The greater risk here, is that torsion bars are more likely to fracture if used opposite to their memory, but leaves may be more forgiving.
Colin

In general I would agree with you on reversing the load on a spring, but my experience with torsion bars has been quite the opposite. On another vehicle I used to work on with similar multi-leaf torsion bars, the bars would sag after 500 hours of use and would usually be broken before 2000 hours. We started swapping the bars every 500 hours, which both controlled the sag and stopped the breakage. Can't say how this would apply to a VW,

To the OP, if the vehicle handles awkwardly or in any way feels unsafe to drive, then be all means go back in there and flip the bars.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:43 pm

So reversing the springs may or may not cause them to break. How long do you all figure it will take for them to "re-sag"? As i said, right now the front is very high and resting on the upper bump stop (the one designed to keep the arms from lowering any further and, in turn, raise the car/allow suspension to hang.) I have yet to drive it as there is currently no interior and the brakes need to be bled. I REALLY don't want to rip everything apart again, but i guess i may have to...

Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:49 pm

Well the unmentionable green book says mixing sides on torsion bars (or leaves) is bad and will result in certain breakage soon, I guess it's because all those molecules that have been happily pulling in a long even line are now pushing sort of like pushing rope and stressed areas can develop. The bars are prestressed at the factory for the direction they will be in service.

As for how long to sag?, 33 years to reach neutral and another 33 to reach the opposite point, possibly longer as your bus likely doesn't get driven as much as a new one would have, slightly shorter if you like cheeseburgers, latte`s and pork rinds.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:57 pm

There is only one way to do this, tear it down and do it right.

Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:06 am

I wonder if this is the cause of the mysterious riding high "front end lift" syndrome? It could be that someone put mine in that way before I got it. Is there a way to tell the difference, visually which side is driver or passenger on the spring pack?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:38 am

hi everybody,i just found all my bay`s torsion bars broken .. except a couple of them, and am trying to find new ones for sale.. I managed to find some in Just kampers.co.uk ... but they are listed that they do only fit with the vw beetle... are torsion bars of a beetle different from those of a bus? or do you know from where I can find new ones .. thanks..

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:07 am

jeoffrey_busuttil wrote: are torsion bars of a beetle different from those of a bus? or do you know from where I can find new ones .. thanks..
Welcome, Beetle bars won't even come close to fitting, you'll have to contact some of these sellers and see who's willing to ship: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?...ton=Search

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:14 am

busdaddy wrote: you'll have to contact some of these sellers

That is a sad line up of the attrition of these fine cars.
Colin

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:50 am

I got a set of leaves from wagens west up in Oregon. I think there are early and late packs.

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:57 am

note: if Just Campers has them BusDepot may also. Personally I would pick a set up from a parts bus if mine were broken unless original GERMAN ones were available new.

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:59 am

Cool do they have a website ?? Coz imfrom europe malta

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:38 am

MidWesty79 wrote: So reversing the springs may or may not cause them to break. How long do you all figure it will take for them to "re-sag"? As i said, right now the front is very high and resting on the upper bump stop (the one designed to keep the arms from lowering any further and, in turn, raise the car/allow suspension to hang.) I have yet to drive it as there is currently no interior and the brakes need to be bled. I REALLY don't want to rip everything apart again, but i guess i may have to...

Pain though it may be pulling things may be the best solution at this time. It is much easier the second time you do this as you have learned the how to. The first bus 20 years ago took me maybe 5 hours to RR the torsion arms. The last bus took me 10 minutes to pull the front torsion arms off. It gets easier each time you do it.

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:40 am

jeoffrey_busuttil wrote: Cool do they have a website ?? Coz imfrom europe malta

http://www.justkampers.com/

Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:12 am

jeoffrey_busuttil wrote: I managed to find some in Just kampers.co.uk ... but they are listed that they do only fit with the vw beetle... ..
SGKent wrote: jeoffrey_busuttil wrote:
Cool do they have a website ?? Coz imfrom europe malta

http://www.justkampers.com/
I think he means a website for www.wagenswest.com since he's already looked at justkampers :wink:

Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:16 am

I had to call them. I don't think they have the used parts on their site. I would ask them explicitly to label driver and passenger if they can.

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:17 pm

SGKent wrote: The last bus took me 10 minutes to pull the front torsion arms off. It gets easier each time you do it.

Excellent! You're doing mine before lunch when I get out there. I'll pay you a fair mechanic's wage pro-rated. Then I'd like to have them back in before I have to hit the road at 2:00. Perfect. I can't wait.
Colin

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:59 pm

Amskeptic wrote: SGKent wrote: The last bus took me 10 minutes to pull the front torsion arms off. It gets easier each time you do it.

Excellent! You're doing mine before lunch when I get out there. I'll pay you a fair mechanic's wage pro-rated. Then I'd like to have them back in before I have to hit the road at 2:00. Perfect. I can't wait.
Colin

Together we can do this. First 10 minutes is free. Putting them back on I charge extra for cause I said TAKING THEM OFF. Norcal Mike and Cathy were there. :)

You will need:

Replacement torsion arms
used inner bushings if yours are gone
New clamps and rubber for sway bar.

You put the bus on stands and take the tires off. Then start the timer. (I have a secret weapon which is a BF miner's hammer and a brass hammer that together take about 10 seconds to knock the top arms off the ledge without damage. Going back on takes longer. The time I take to line my tools up doesn't count. I also have the inner and outer bearing tools.

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:43 pm

SGKent wrote: You put the bus on stands and take the tires off. Then start the timer. (I have a secret weapon which is a BF miner's hammer and a brass hammer that together take about 10 seconds to knock the top arms off the ledge without damage. Going back on takes longer. The time I take to line my tools up doesn't count. I also have the inner and outer bearing tools.

Sounds like kind of a Calvin Ball version of mechanicing to me.