TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1.8 16 valve or 2.0 ABA....which to choose for motor swap

Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:12 pm

I am currently looking into purchasing my first vanagon and I am doing some research. I would prefer to find one that is an 85 and up with a manual transmission and blown motor if possible. I have recently found 2 different ones for $1000 obo. 1 tin top and 1 pop top. I prefer tin tops! One of the first things Id like to do is a motor swap so that I can daily this thing and still get about 22 mpg. I am still looking for info on these swaps. I have found some general info like using the diesel bellhousing and carrier bar.

I am reading that the 16 valve has harsh vibration and is not recommended for a swap. Im thinking that if I run a hydrolic mount that it may be fine. I see that others have done this for motor swaps like the VR and 1.8t. Id love to have the speed and economy of a 16 valve. My good friend has one in his cabby and just LOVES it!!

My other choice would be the OBD1 ABA as it has the forged internals, oil squirters, and I have good knowledge of the motor. I have done the swap into an MK1 before. Another plus is that the junkyards here are littered with them!! I can also upgrade a cam and chip in this motor and get performance gains on the cheap.

So the question at hand is.....Whats the better swap? I have found both motors in the junkyard recently on the cheap.

Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:21 pm

ABA 2.0 :wink:

Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:22 pm

Both of those motors have 121 lb/ft of torque. The 16V produces it at 4200 rpms and the ABA puts it out at 3200 rpms. The 16V puts out slightly more hp - 123 vs 115, but once again, it's at a higher rpm.

For a VW car I would personally choose a 1.8 16V any time because I like the sporty powerband and the sound they make at full bore. But for a Vanagon, I think the ABA would be a much better match considering the weight of the vehicle.

You could always do a 2.0 16V - 134 hp and 133 torque, but given that the ABA is full Motronic EFI and the 16Vs are both CIS E based, the ABA would make for a cleaner and simpler install.

You can't really go wrong with an ABA. As you said, they are plentiful and cheap, and they really are a nice engine. You certainly won't get a ton of additonal performance out of one compared to a good running Wasserboxer, but they do get better mileage and should be cheap to maintain.

David

Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Personally, I'd go with the 1.8T. I have a Passat wagon, and even bone stock that motor is amazing, torquey, and fun to drive.
More work to install, and may require a engine lid spacer.
OTOH, the ABA can be put in using diesel Vanagon mounting hardware and bellhousing at 50deg slant...

Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:07 pm

I'm totally biased, and have no real working knowledge of the 16v but I'd say g/w the ABA. If I keep the revs down, and there's no headwind, my swap gets over 20 MPG, US gallons, WBX 4 spd, 14" wheels and close to stock tires.

AFAIK @ 50º the stock ABA intake will poke through the engine lid somewhat.

I'd suggest looking into using hydro mounts regardless of engine. FWIW, the Fox mounts I used worked, but I anticipate a real improvement when I get my Audi 5000 hydro mounts installed. I do not know if the DV mounts are any better at isolating vibrations than the Fox mounts.

Neil, "stuck" in Hershey, not working in his van!

Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:03 pm

ABA with a turbo :)

Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:08 pm

Besides bolting on a turbo, what else would be needed to safely, successfully add a turbo to an ABA engine?

Marty Mcfly wrote: ABA with a turbo :)

Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:29 pm

Turbo, turbo manifold, ecu tune, injectors, thicker head gasket, intercooler, piping and plumbing parts...

Depends on how much boost and what type of waste gate the turbo uses, but more less lots of little parts.

The only reason I suggest because I know what a stock 8v moving a newer (05 jetta) feels like. I think in a van it wont be much better then the WB, with the exception of reliability and easy to get parts.

People practically give ABAs away though. So you could piece together a turbo setup (especially with used parts) for maybe a little less then a 20v 1.8t swap. Not sure the going price of a complete 20v swap... but my stripped long block with an ecu and harness cost me $900 :cry:

Our getto ABA turbo hillclimb car :lol:

Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:32 pm

danfromsyr wrote: Besides bolting on a turbo, what else would be needed to safely, successfully add a turbo to an ABA engine?

Turbo oil supply, oil return to the pan, possibly coolant depending on which turbo, intercooler depending on boost level, software, supporting hardware for software (MAF, injectors). That's about it. Tons of kits out there for turbo ABA's.

I would also invest in some temp sensors. A vanagon is MUCH heavier than a Mk3. But I really like even the NA ABA, simple to work on, parts are everywhere and fairly cheap. I have one as a backup engine in case my wbx breaks and I can't afford the diesel conversion just yet.

Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:53 am

Thanks for the info everyone. My first choice was the ABA since it is cheaper for parts and more readily available. I can get stuff for it just about anywhere.

I am going to contact Jakob at "The Shop" and get some info on his ABA turbo vanagon. He is about 2hr drive from me, so I may even go out there and chat with him one friday.

I found this link for some swap info. http://volksweb.relitech.com/convert.htm
If anyone has any other basic info on the ABA swap, I would appreciate it. I did a search on here using terms like "ABA swap" and did not have much luck. Im trying to find out what I am getting into here. I already have 4 projects Im working on....one of which is a 1Z TDI 82 Jetta coupe.

Again, thanks for all your thoughts. :)

Edit: I am thinking of using the intake Manifold off the AEG motor to help with decklid clearance. Im also going to use the AEG exhaust manifold since it is a tubular design. This is an MK1 trick we do to clearance hoods and also get better air flow and about 5 hp gain.

Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:56 am

KDI_CUSTOMS wrote:

I found this link for some swap info. http://volksweb.relitech.com/convert.htm
If anyone has any other basic info on the ABA swap, I would appreciate it. I did a search on here using terms like "ABA swap" and did not have much luck. Im trying to find out what I am getting into here. I already have 4 projects Im working on....one of which is a 1Z TDI 82 Jetta coupe.

Again, thanks for all your thoughts. :)

Edit: I am thinking of using the intake Manifold off the AEG motor to help with decklid clearance. Im also going to use the AEG exhaust manifold since it is a tubular design. This is an MK1 trick we do to clearance hoods and also get better air flow and about 5 hp gain.

My page might have info you can use. You can find it via my sig.

Basically you need the FP, HO2S and ECU power relay to make it run. Be sure to use the stock relays. The ECU power relay has surge back protection. This may also be true for other applicable relays. I ran mine w/o VSS for some time. w/o VSS, a code would get stored. It was also possibly the cause of MIL coming on while under load, highway speeds. I installed a (Mk 2?) VSS at cluster. Light issue seems to be gone but no performance change that I noticed. e.g. it seemed to run just fine w/o it.

There's lots on the exhaust in the Tiico forum that should apply. As for some others, this was a stumbling block for me; exhaust cracks. AFAIK, in terms of mounting the exhaust there seems to be 2 schools:

(edit: Captain Pike, aka Bill, used the infamous "toilet bowl" type flex joint at manifold. Worked great for him and I suspect it has for other users. IIRC he mounted exhaust using the DV setup. Since you're using what I presume is a dual outlet manifold, this doesn't apply. Just wanted to include his setup in my comment as fixing exhaust cracks is a PITA. And along the lines of the toilet bowl flex joint, I hope to have a single pipe setup installed soon. It will use the stock New Beetle downpipe which has a flex joint close to the manifold. I just happened to get a great price on it used, and thought it would be useful to see if it worked (survived) as donors with this manifold and pipe will likely be getting more common as time goes on. Pic: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Q8RL7ZfES7A/Tt1...53Acat.jpg )

mount exhaust to engine like the diesel Vanagon, or, mount exhaust to frame via isolators. FAS has a picasaweb page on BETA stuff they're doing. Some pics show an exhaust mounted to frame using large flexible rubber isolators. They also show a flex joint not far from manifold and the WBX type donut at cat inlet. Having a cat or not, IMO, makes a difference. IMO, the DV setup may be just fine for supporting an exhauast w/o cat, but adding cat poss. changes things. Not saying one can't run the DV brackets with an exhaust having a cat. Just suggesting it needs to be braced properly. Other pics on FAS BETA show what I think is a turbo setup install at 50º. Some great pics here: https://picasaweb.google.com/116091365267664548782...directlink

If you find an early OBD1, it may not have a MIL wire in the loom. One can be added.

There should be more info here under my handle and I'm certain there's more info to be found via other people who've commented in those threads. I just can't recall their handles right now.

Neil.

Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:03 am

Here is a link to a company that sells blowers and turbo goodies for th aba:
http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/categories/164/BBM_Silicone_Hoses?start=9&ind=0
I was gona go aba with blower or g60 with the same blower had i not found the deal i got on the 1.8t... I got the swap goodies for the 1.8t for 1200ish total. It was 1k but a few dealer only items were missing....

Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:55 am

Wowza!!!

Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:14 pm

I was going down the path of a 16V 2.0 aba G60 hybrid but decided to go with a TDI. BBM has lots of parts and goodies. I've also just pulled a fast G60 out of my vanagon. I have also have a new built aba and parts 1.8 if you go down this route.

Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:16 pm

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: Wowza!!!

You can paint the vanagon red and put flashing lights on top because everyone will think you are a firetruck coming down the road! Those chargers from BBM are NOISY! The G-ladder is expensive and not so reliable. If I had to supercharge something I would probably use a vortec.

Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:59 pm

hans j wrote: Zeitgeist 13 wrote: Wowza!!!

You can paint the vanagon red and put flashing lights on top because everyone will think you are a firetruck coming down the road! Those chargers from BBM are NOISY! The G-ladder is expensive and not so reliable. If I had to supercharge something I would probably use a vortec.
The g60 can be/is garbage and is prone to premature failure. The engine puictured AND the charger i am speaking of isn't a g60. It's a twin screw charger and is waaaaaaaaayyyyy more durable then the g60. It isn't quiet but it isn't silly loud either. However noise is a very subjective topic. Honestly with the power out put potential of this charger i wouldn't mind the extra noise(form fallows functioin). The bbm twin screw is more effecient(80%) then a Vortec charger. The prob with a twin screw, Vortec and others is price.... For the price a charger alone you could do a 1.8t. Thats how the #'s crunched for me....

Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:31 pm

The 16 valve I wanted to get went to the crusher today. It was in a rocco at the salvage yard. We did get some goodies off the car before they took it though.

On the topic of forced induction, if I were to spend the money on the ABA I definately would not go with a supercharger. Dont get me wrong, I think BBM stuff is awesome. I just feel that I can get WAY more power from a turbo setup that is priced the same a supercharger setup.
To give you an idea, the BBM Supercharger puts down 177hp at stage 1 and costs $3500. The BBM Turbo puts down 160hp at stage 1 for a cost of $2500. I can get more gains from the motor and pass the 177hp mark with that extra $1000.

Just my $.02.

Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:46 pm

Stick with the ABA and maybe turbo it if you go forced induction. Oh and the AEG intake is probably the same dimensions as the ABA, maybe larger. It's what I have on my caddy and it's likely just a placebo effect on the power, but I wanted my intake over by the stock location. If I do my ABA vanagon first, I will chop off the bottom part of the intake manifold and have a long log manifold build that bows over the front of the engine.

Similar to what I did on my rabbit

This is the sound the BBM twin charger makes. It's not broken, they all make this noise.

Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:32 pm

KDI_CUSTOMS wrote: The 16 valve I wanted to get went to the crusher today. It was in a rocco at the salvage yard. We did get some goodies off the car before they took it though.

On the topic of forced induction, if I were to spend the money on the ABA I definately would not go with a supercharger. Dont get me wrong, I think BBM stuff is awesome. I just feel that I can get WAY more power from a turbo setup that is priced the same a supercharger setup.
To give you an idea, the BBM Supercharger puts down 177hp at stage 1 and costs $3500. The BBM Turbo puts down 160hp at stage 1 for a cost of $2500. I can get more gains from the motor and pass the 177hp mark with that extra $1000.

Just my $.02.
Yep the charger is pricey, i am a lil biased toward the charger but it is cost prohibitive. BBm has top notch goodies....

Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:43 pm

hans j wrote: Zeitgeist 13 wrote: Wowza!!!

You can paint the vanagon red and put flashing lights on top because everyone will think you are a firetruck coming down the road! Those chargers from BBM are NOISY! The G-ladder is expensive and not so reliable. If I had to supercharge something I would probably use a vortec.
Yeah thats loud!! I forgot how loud, thanx for clip, brings back memories!!! If i could afford i'd still think about it though :P 8)