TheSamba.com :: View topic - 3 pin Flasher Relay buzzing

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:18 am

Hello Guys;

SPECS

1974 SB
All had been working well and no car trouble at all, but suddenly (after clock install) I’m having trouble with my blinker/flasher system/ flasher relay.

Before I start, I would like to say that my Driver side brake light does not come on when I apply the brakes (It's been like that for a month and has not given me trouble).
Thinking it was just a bad bulb in the braking system, I went to change it but the bulb was fine (I replaced the bulb anyway, but the brake light still does not work). Finding the problem with my brake light is on my To-Do list.

PROBLEM
I decided to install a VDO CLOCK.
I removed the dash panel and removed all of the panel’s switches (removed Headlight switch, rear window defogger switch, and the Hazard switch). I also removed the radio (original not connected to power – only for looks) for better access to everything.
To power the clock, I got positive from headlight switch and ground from the speedo. I got power for the clock's light from the dimmer (head light switch).
I then put all the switches back on dash panel and reinstalled the dash panel with the new addition (clock) back in place. Clock working fine and clock's light working fine.

When I went to turn on the car, some thing was wrong.
When I turned the key to the ON/Steering position (before engaging the starter) the turn signal relay made a buzzing sound. After 3 attempts, I smelled a slight burning smell.

I scoured thesamba forums for guidance. The consensus on buzzing turn signal relays is usually a loose ground wire. So, I’m thinking I must’ve knocked a ground wire loose somewhere during clock installation.

I took everything back apart and searched for any loose ground wires. No loose ground wires found.

HAZARD LIGHT SWITCH
I think I narrowed the malfunction to the Hazard Light switch. I think I may have loosened a wire connector from the back while removing it during the clock installation process. Here are my findings.
After gently moving things around inside the dash, I switched the hazard switch to the ON position to test it and I immediately blew the #8 fuse (Emergency flasher system). I replaced the fuse.
I removed all the wires from their connectors (from hazard switch) and cleaned each of them then reconnected them again (I took several pictures of all the wires in the back of the hazard switch before removal for reference).

After cleaning connectors on Hazard Switch and reconnecting them, I turned key to on/steering position and buzzing sound again appears. ERRRR
This time, I turned ON Hazard light switch (while ignition is on) and fuse #8 did not blow, but I smelled a burning smell. I found fused #12 ceramic stem melted, but metal part NEVER BLEW (GO FIGURE).

After ceramic melted on #12 fuse, I stopped working on problem for a short while.
When I returned to work on my bug again, I once again turned the ignition to the on/steering position (did not engage starter), but now NO BUZZING, no speedo lights, no blinkers, no hazards, nada. - ERRRR

Fearing I had melted a wire or something (since fuse #12 did not blow but got hot enough to melt ceramic stem), I decided to remove and TEST the turn signal relay (WEHRLE) and connected power and ground to it directly from the battery.
I grounded relay's terminal #31 and connected 12V to terminal 49 and relay made exact same buzzing sound and no clicking – ERRRRR. Is this normal?

I then grounded relay's terminal 49 (instead of #31) and connected 12V to terminal #31 and relay made a single click every time. This seemed odd, since I thought terminal #31 was ground.

AutoZone Relay
I went to the parts store (AutoZone) and bought a new turn signal relay (The VW parts store was closed for Labor Day weekend). I tested the new AutoZone relay by powering it directly from the battery and the relay made NO buzzing sound and no clicking sound regardless if I grounded terminal #31 and powered (with 12V) terminal #49 or visa-versa.
Is this normal relay behavior??

INSTALLED NEW (AutoZone) TURN SIGNAL RELAY
Even though AutoZone relay did not click at all when I connected it directly to the battery, I installed it anyway.
When I turn key to on/steering position (not engaging starter) I get following symptoms;
Turn signal relay is constantly making a clicking/blinker sound - never stops. Speedo green turn signal is constantly blinking and red “G” light is also blinking (faintly).
-I actually get Turn signals working.
-I actually get Hazards to work
- No melted fuses.

When I start the engine (engine starts fine), I get the following symptoms.
Turn signal relay makes clicking/blinker sound but eventually STOPS.
When I turn on the Left/right blinkers; blinkers work and Speedo green turn signal light blinks BUT NOW WITH ENGINE RUNNING, the red "G" light stopped blinking and now the red OIL LIGHT is blinking (faintly).
-I actually get Turn signals working.
-I actually get Hazards to work
- No melted fuses.

REINSTALLED BUZZING RELAY
I reinstalled my WEHRLE buzzing flasher, and again it doesn't do anything at all; no buzzing, no blinking. - ERRRR

MY THEORIES
I melted a wire or something (when fuse #12 got hot but did not blow) and it is now grounded somewhere.

Do you guys think it is possible that Turn signal Relay originally started buzzing because it went bad on its own (nothing to do with loose ground)?

Any ideas?
I want to search and find any melted wire(s) (in case there are any), but would like some guidance as to where to start.

Thank you in advance for any guidance. I appreciate any help.

Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:55 am

Gotta love the eni mini miny moe method of electrical connections. :lol:

Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:04 am

SupBeat74 wrote: Before I start, I would like to say that my Driver side brake light does not come on when I apply the brakes (It's been like that for a month and has not given me trouble).
Both brake lights are powered by a single black/red wire from the MC switches. If one is working then the circuit to the back is good. The problem is somewhere after it splits.

SupBeat74 wrote: After cleaning connectors on Hazard Switch and reconnecting them, I turned key to on/steering position and buzzing sound again appears. ERRRR
This time, I turned ON Hazard light switch (while ignition is on) and fuse #8 did not blow, but I smelled a burning smell. I found fused #12 ceramic stem melted, but metal part NEVER BLEW (GO FIGURE).

Why are you running 25A fuses? There are three GBC-type fuses:
White = 8A
Red = 16A
Blue = 25A

VW Beetles only ever came with white or red fuses. Be sure you have the correct size fuse in each fuse box position. Check the fuse box diagram for your model year:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiringt1.php

If you melted a blue fuse you were flowing WAY more amps than those wires were meant to carry. You should check that ALL the wires connected to #12 are not melted. Especially the one that runs to the E-flasher switch. If it is melted, replace it.

SupBeat74 wrote: I grounded relay's terminal #31 and connected 12V to terminal 49 and relay made exact same buzzing sound and no clicking – ERRRRR. Is this normal?

AutoZone Relay
I went to the parts store (AutoZone) and bought a new turn signal relay (The VW parts store was closed for Labor Day weekend). I tested the new AutoZone relay by powering it directly from the battery and the relay made NO buzzing sound and no clicking sound regardless if I grounded terminal #31 and powered (with 12V) terminal #49 or visa-versa.
Is this normal relay behavior??
I get the impression you think the (#31) ground is needed to make the flasher relay "flash". And that the circuit runs from #49 to #31. This is not the case. The flasher works based on current flowing THROUGH it from the #49 terminal to the #49a terminal. There needs to be a LOAD on the #49a terminal like a few bulbs in parallel (two turn signal bulbs). This will cause the flasher to "flash".

The #31 ground terminal is primarily for the turn signal indicator bulb in the speedometer. That bulb (along with the G and Oil bulbs) is powered by a single black (#15) wire at the very bottom of the speedometer. Each of the three indicator bulbs is grounded to make them light up. The turn signal indicator bulb is grounded by the flasher relay. This is why the flasher relay needs a #31 ground connection.
I haven't actually tried it, but I think the flasher relay WILL work without the ground wire connected, but the turn signal indicator light will stop working.

SupBeat74 wrote: Do you guys think it is possible that Turn signal Relay originally started buzzing because it went bad on its own (nothing to do with loose ground)?

Any ideas?
I want to search and find any melted wire(s) (in case there are any), but would like some guidance as to where to start.
Based on your descriptions, it sounds like your 1st flasher relay went bad.

Disconnect the blue wire that runs from the turn signal indicator in the speedometer to the flasher relay. See if this improves the clicking in the relay. The corner turn signals should work fine, but your speedometer indicator will not with the wire disconnected.

Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:57 am

Hello Guys;

I have been at it all morning (since early morning) trying to get this problem solved, so I truly appreciate your responses. Makes me know I’m not alone out here.

Mr. “ashman40”, I’m so glad you see your response.

ashman40 wrote: VW Beetles only ever came with white or red fuses. Be sure you have the correct size fuse in each fuse box position. Check the fuse box diagram for your model year:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiringt1.php
DARN! The BLUE fuse was placed there by the previous owner and it never dawned on me to even question fuses (This SUCKS). I have replaced #12 with the WHITE (8 amp) as the diagram/Owner’s Manual shows. Thank you for pointing that out.

ashman40 wrote: Based on your descriptions, it sounds like your 1st flasher relay went bad.
Boy, … if this is what happened, it was really bad timing. Flasher buzzing (going bad) just after a clock installation really made me think I had disconnected a wire or messed up something in the dash wiring during the process (Maybe I did something that made the flasher relay go bad. Not sure). Now I’m almost sure I messed up something while trying to fix something behind the dash that was probably not messed up in the first place – just a relay went bad.

ashman40 wrote: Disconnect the blue wire that runs from the turn signal indicator in the speedometer to the flasher relay. See if this improves the clicking in the relay. The corner turn signals should work fine, but your speedometer indicator will not with the wire disconnected.
I disconnected the blue wire that runs from the turn signal indicator in the speedometer to the flasher relay. Then I reinstalled the original relay and tuned ignition ON: but only got buzzing. Turn signals did not work (no clicking from relay, only buzzing).

Mr "ashman40"; you posted on another post a trouble shooting process that I ran into early this morning and performed. I was wondering if you could kindly interpret my results.
Here is the original post with the test: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=438879
ashman40 wrote: Remove your flasher relay and set it aside. Run the following tests on the female socket the relay was connected to:

With the ignition OFF and the E-Flasher OFF, check that the #31 connection (brown wire) is properly grounded. The #49 (white) input wire DOES NOT have any power. The #49a connection should read ground as these go to the four corner bulbs and ground after the bulb filaments.

Turn the E-Flasher switch to ON and test the #49 terminal for 12v+. Remove the #8 fuse and make sure the power goes away. Replace the fuse and turn OFF the E-flasher switch.

Turn the ignition switch to ON and check that the #49 terminal has 12v+. Also check that the #49a terminal has 12v+ (coming from the speedo indicator lamp). Remove the #12 fuse and confirm the power goes away on both the #49 and #49a terminals. Replace the fuse and turn the ignition switch OFF.

With a small jumper wire, connect the #49 and #49a terminals together. This bypasses the flasher relay and will provide direct power to the corner bulbs (no flashing). With the ignition switch ON try both the left and right turn signal positions. The outside lights should come ON, but not flash since the flasher relay has been removed. If you have trouble with this, try removing the turn signal indicator bulb from the speedo and re-run the test.

With the jumper wire still in place, turn the E-Flasher switch ON and check that the four corner lights come ON. Do this with the ignition ON and OFF.

Replace all fuses, remove the jumper wire and replace the flasher relay (assuming it is the correct one).

MY RESULTS
Everything checks out according to the test EXCEPT:
Turn the ignition switch to ON and check that the #49 terminal has 12v+. YES - Shows 12v+.
Also check that the #49a terminal has 12v+ (coming from the speedo indicator lamp). NO - NO POWER.
Remove the #12 fuse and confirm the power goes away on both the #49 and #49a terminals.
#49 - YES - Power went away on #49.
#49a - NO - #49a has no power with or without fuse.
Replace the fuse and turn the ignition switch OFF.

With a small jumper wire, connect the #49 and #49a terminals together. This bypasses the flasher relay and will provide direct power to the corner bulbs (no flashing). Jumper wire placed. I assumed no lights are to come on at this stage since it is just a prep step to test the turn signals and E-flasher. Is this a correct assumption at this step??
The rest of the test checked out OK.

Thank you so much for the help/ result interpretation.
I'm off to grab some lunch and then start up again.

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:56 pm

The #49a terminal on the flasher relay connects to three things:
Output to turn signal switch

Output to E-flasher switch

Input from turn signal indicator bulb in speedometer
12v+ coming from the turn indicator bulb in the speedometer will try to ground through the flasher relay. This is the 12v you should detect in the first test you ask of. If you disconnected the blue wire that comes from the speedometer bulb, you will NOT detect 12v at the #49a terminal. But if you test the end of the disconnected blue wire with the ignition ON, you should be able to confirm there is 12v+ coming from the bulb.

Yes to your second question. Bypassing the flasher relay is just the first step. Power won't reach the corner bulbs until you turn ON the turn signal switch (L order R), or turn ON the E-flasher switch to power bulbs at all four corners.

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:24 pm

Thank you Lord Jesus !!!

BUZZING Flasher Relay was indeed a loose ground wire.

Five days later, a dash board taken apart, and following wires all over that bug, ... I finally found a flippin' loose ground wire.

With Labor Day weekend over, I was finally able to get a new flasher relay from my VW parts store. When I installed it, it buzzed exactly like the original one, so it confirmed what ashman40's test told me all along; that the problem was likely with the wiring and not the flasher relay. So, I just kept trying to find out why terminal #49a did not have 12v+ when ignition was on.
An interesting thing I discovered; The buzzing in the flasher relay (with ignition ON) stopped when the Turn Signal Light Bulb was disconnected.

Yep, I feel pretty embarrassed :oops: .
While trying to fix this problem, I pulled out that speedo as much as the wires would allow me, and that freakin' ground wire was just long enough to remain hiding behind the speedo opening. Geez
I think there are two factors that contributed to me missing the loose Ground wire;
1. Because there are several "open" ground slots at the speedo, it wasn't obvious that a ground wire was actually disconnected.
2. The particular ground wire that was loose actually jumped from the fuel gauge vibrator to a ground terminal at the bottom of the speedo (I can't believe I kept missing that).

Thank you "ashman40" for taking the time to help me and for the TEST you posted in another thread. It kept me on-track.

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:51 pm

Grounds are BROWN. The wire(s) you are pointing at looks to be the 12+ power to the 3 lights at the bottom of the speedometer. Are those pry marks on the speedometer? 8)

Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:37 pm

Hey runamoc;

You're right - ground wires are Brown but this connector with the two wires clearly goes to one of the open ground terminals on the speedo.
I'm guessing that the reason they are not Brown in color is because the wire is actually doing some sort of daisy-chain connection.

Yea, those are pry marks. The previous owner must've not had the patience to open it up without f'ing it up, or simply didn't care. Luckily, I was able to rotate the outer ring to place the pry marks at the top right of the speedo - to hide them a bit.

Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:39 pm

SupBeat74 wrote: An interesting thing I discovered; The buzzing in the flasher relay (with ignition ON) stopped when the Turn Signal Light Bulb was disconnected.

Yep, I feel pretty embarrassed :oops: .
While trying to fix this problem, I pulled out that speedo as much as the wires would allow me, and that freakin' ground wire was just long enough to remain hiding behind the speedo opening. Geez
I think there are two factors that contributed to me missing the loose Ground wire;
1. Because there are several "open" ground slots at the speedo, it wasn't obvious that a ground wire was actually disconnected.
2. The particular ground wire that was loose actually jumped from the fuel gauge vibrator to a ground terminal at the bottom of the speedo (I can't believe I kept missing that).

That bottom wire comes from the fuse box and has 12v+ when the ignition switch is ON. This one fuse powers the fuel gauge and indicator lamps.

It is a very common mistake to think this is a ground wire. It IS a single connection SHARED by all three indicator bulbs at the botton of the speedometer. Common config would assume this was ground. But on VWs, these three indicator bulbs share a common 12v+. Each individual bulb holder wire goes to a ground source (oil pessure sensor; voltage regulator; flasher relay).

I'm glad you got it working, but I think the cause of your problem was a loose/intermittent connection of this 12v+ wire.

Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:51 pm

Hey "ashman40"

That makes more sense.

ashman40 wrote: It is a very common mistake to think this is a ground wire. .... Common config would assume this was ground.
You're right. I figured the wires in the back of each of the 3 indicator lights were 12v+ when in fact they are ground and the shared plate at the bottom of the speedo gets the 12v+.

Looks like that's what "runamoc" was pointing out. Good-eye "runamoc".

Cool.
You guys totally ROCK.
Thanks again

Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:11 am

Quote: they are not Brown in color is because the wire is actually doing some sort of daisy-chain connection
All grounds are BROWN! Even daisy-chained ones. Switched ground circuits, like the horn, will have a brown with a color stripe after the switch.

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:35 am

Same problem and this information was the solution.