TheSamba.com :: View topic - 91 Carat VR6 Project

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:30 am

D Clymer wrote: James,

The fuel pump wiring is actually very easy to separate from the WBX engine harness. If you look in the area of the front engine compartment bulkhead to the right of the fuel supply spigot you will see a two wire lead coming through the bulkhead that ends in a two prong connector. That wiring leads to the fuel pump. You can disconnect it from the Digifant wiring there and then remove the Digifant harness. Most of the harness unplugs at the black interface box. It is well isolated and comes out pretty easily.

David

Thanks David. I know exactly which connector your are talking about. Good to know. I was also hoping to retain the OE fuel pump relay setup, but maybe my VR6 fusebox already has its own relay to use. I don't want a situation where the fuel pump runs constantly in the key-on position, even with the engine off. The idea of the pump continuing to pump fuel in an accident scares the heck outta me.
Guess I just need to dive in and start disconnecting things.

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:50 am

Your not going to put the whole VR6 fuse box in are you? You can use the VR6 fuel pump relay to trigger your pump without the whole box being there.

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:24 am

xoo00oox wrote: Your not going to put the whole VR6 fuse box in are you? You can use the VR6 fuel pump relay to trigger your pump without the whole box being there.

My plan was to just mount the VR6 fusebox in the rear and just feed it a dedicated constant power and a switched power. That of course may change once I see what is what back there. Isn't the VR6 fuel pump relay mounted in the VR fusebox? or is it separated? I'll have to look again at my diagrams. It has been awhile since I looked at all the wiring again.

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:45 am

Your right, it is on the fuse panel. It could easily be separated. It would work with the whole panel, just take up more room.

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:03 am

xoo00oox wrote: Your right, it is on the fuse panel. It could easily be separated. It would work with the whole panel, just take up more room.

Room I've got plenty of :lol:

My raised deck will have a nice compartment to mount to whole thing.

Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:53 pm

Today:

Ok that was pretty easy. I fished out the old harness for the ECU and engine. As noted it comes out easily as one whole assembly.

The best news about today's work was discovering that the Vanagons power steering pressure line hooks right up to the VR6 PS pump. VW used the same banjo fitting sizes for both. Whoohoo! That makes life easy.

While sitting there in the engine bay (that's kinda fun) I was looking at the access I now have to other items under the van. Both the brake hard lines and power steering lines have some decent amounts of corrosion. Boy it sure would be easier to deal with them with the engine/trans out of the way, but my timeline and work load just can't take much more add-on work. Grrrr it's a bit frustrating. I'm a firm believer of addressing things BEFORE they are a problem.

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:33 pm

James 93SLC wrote:

I don't want a situation where the fuel pump runs constantly in the key-on position, even with the engine off. The idea of the pump continuing to pump fuel in an accident scares the heck outta me.
Guess I just need to dive in and start disconnecting things.

FWIW, the ECU, if wired in correctly, determines fuel pump behaviour.

I too had considered running my Mk3 fuse box on my swap. For me, and possibly you too, all that's needed is:

FP, HO2S and ECU power relay. I'm guessing a bit as I don't know the VR, but if it's OBD1 I bet the relay requirements are the same of similar as my ABA swap.

Edit: though possibly a bit kludgy, I just installed the fuses and relays in the stock WBX black junction box.

Neil.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:49 am

Vanagon Nut wrote:
FWIW, the ECU, if wired in correctly, determines fuel pump behaviour.

I too had considered running my Mk3 fuse box on my swap. For me, and possibly you too, all that's needed is:

FP, HO2S and ECU power relay. I'm guessing a bit as I don't know the VR, but if it's OBD1 I bet the relay requirements are the same of similar as my ABA swap.

Edit: though possibly a bit kludgy, I just installed the fuses and relays in the stock WBX black junction box.

Neil.

Mine is OBDII, but OBDI isn't really any different when it comes to the fusebox setup. Since I now know where the fuel pump wiring is, I will just use the VR6 fuel pump relay and ECU trigger to control it.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:15 am

James 93SLC wrote:

Mine is OBDII, but OBDI isn't really any different when it comes to the fusebox setup. Since I now know where the fuel pump wiring is, I will just use the VR6 fuel pump relay and ECU trigger to control it.

Yes. This is the best way to control the fuel pump.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:51 am

James 93SLC wrote: Vanagon Nut wrote:
FWIW, the ECU, if wired in correctly, determines fuel pump behaviour.

I too had considered running my Mk3 fuse box on my swap. For me, and possibly you too, all that's needed is:

FP, HO2S and ECU power relay. I'm guessing a bit as I don't know the VR, but if it's OBD1 I bet the relay requirements are the same of similar as my ABA swap.

Edit: though possibly a bit kludgy, I just installed the fuses and relays in the stock WBX black junction box.

Neil.

Mine is OBDII, but OBDI isn't really any different when it comes to the fusebox setup. Since I now know where the fuel pump wiring is, I will just use the VR6 fuel pump relay and ECU trigger to control it.

Cool.

For the required relays, I'd use VR relays just to be safe. There could be (diodes?) in the VR relays not present in the Vanagon relays. IIRC, these (diodes?) suppress kick back voltage spikes to ECU when engine shut down. Usually one can see the part indicated on the diagram on relay body. But just because this part is shown, doesn't mean it's the right relay. These internal parts may vary. Also, note on the diagram of relay below, that power from 30 goes to the + side of the relay coil. This means only 3 external connections.

example of what I mean. Pic of my ECU power supply relay. Internal part I refer to is shown in diagram:

Also, in your VR wiring diagram, consider what guage wire (s) run from 15 of ign. switch to ECU and/or coil pack.

In Jetta ABA wiring diagram, wire from 15 of ign. switch (I can't recall if it goes to coil pack then ECU. Regardless....) is a larger gauge than the wire from 15 of ign. switch on my '81. I was going to use that OEM wire from 15 of ign. switch but chose to run a larger wire.

Just a thought.

Neil.

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:54 am

just a couple pics to keep up your excitement.

This is where I am at.

I also picked up some gas struts and a piano hinge for the engine lid.

Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:12 am

Looks good.

Do you have a photo of the ground clearance?

I've just started fitted an Audi 5 Cyl to my Bluestar and the ground clearance is questionable with where I want the engine to sit.

MG

Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:23 am

SyncroGhia wrote: Looks good.

Do you have a photo of the ground clearance?

I've just started fitted an Audi 5 Cyl to my Bluestar and the ground clearance is questionable with where I want the engine to sit.

MG

Check out some of the pics in his gallery. I think he has a few in there from previous conversions. I believe he mounts it so that it sits no lower than the stock wbxr, but don't quote me on that :P

Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:26 am

fastwagens wrote: just a couple pics to keep up your excitement.

This is where I am at.

Looking good. I'm digging the hood prop 8)

Right now I just need to get some bolts so that I can mount up the adapter plate and get the trans mounted up. I'm also not sure I have new flywheel bolts on hand and might need to order them.

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:54 am

James 93SLC wrote: fastwagens wrote: just a couple pics to keep up your excitement.

This is where I am at.

Looking good. I'm digging the hood prop 8)

Right now I just need to get some bolts so that I can mount up the adapter plate and get the trans mounted up. I'm also not sure I have new flywheel bolts on hand and might need to order them.

Didn't you receive all the hardware with the kit?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:58 am

SyncroGhia wrote: Looks good.

Do you have a photo of the ground clearance?

I've just started fitted an Audi 5 Cyl to my Bluestar and the ground clearance is questionable with where I want the engine to sit.

MG

I'll get some pics tonight after work. The oil pan is about 1" below the stock engine carrier. On an auto you can lift the engine up higher because you don't need to worry about shift rod geometry.

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:07 am

fastwagens wrote:

Didn't you receive all the hardware with the kit?

I bought mine used and it came with almost everything. There are a few bolts that I also need a bit longer in order to mount one of my engine mount pick-up points.

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:56 pm

you guys are over thinking the whole wiring thing.

the CE2 fuse block can easily be piggy backed in via 5 wires in the stock vanagon harness to run the vr just like factory. also the CE2 fuse block can be easily undone, removed, and the wiring returned to stock vanagon configuration if needs be.

further benefits of doing this means you only have 5 connections to test for problems and best of all the bentley for the vr motor would apply when it came to checking the engine wiring harness.

piggybacking the box is by far the simplest and easiest way to go about it all.

if the OP is ok with it, i'll steal my write up for doing it this way off the other vw forum i belong to and i'll gladly post it in this thread.

oh and i'm happy to see some updates on this....i'm finishing up with my baywindow project and about to begin going on my vangaon vr as well :twisted:

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:37 pm

a1steaksauce wrote: you guys are over thinking the whole wiring thing.

the CE2 fuse block can easily be piggy backed in via 5 wires in the stock vanagon harness to run the vr just like factory. also the CE2 fuse block can be easily undone, removed, and the wiring returned to stock vanagon configuration if needs be.

further benefits of doing this means you only have 5 connections to test for problems and best of all the bentley for the vr motor would apply when it came to checking the engine wiring harness.

piggybacking the box is by far the simplest and easiest way to go about it all.

if the OP is ok with it, i'll steal my write up for doing it this way off the other vw forum i belong to and i'll gladly post it in this thread.

oh and i'm happy to see some updates on this....i'm finishing up with my baywindow project and about to begin going on my vangaon vr as well :twisted:

That's really my plan. I'm mounting the CE2 fusebox in the back near the motor and just picking up my switched power from the ignition and constant power off the starter power cable to run everything. No hacking of the original van wiring at all.

I am curious about the 5 wires. Here is what I have in my head, and please correct me if I'm wrong our missing something.

1) Switched power from the ignition (this comes from the plug that fed the original ECU & Fuel Pump relays).
2) Constant power feeding the CE2 fusebox (supplied from main starter power cable).
3) Ground
4) Oil pressure signals (hi & low)
5) Tach signal (this needs to be converted from digital to analog).

Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:27 pm

James 93SLC wrote:

That's really my plan. I'm mounting the CE2 fusebox in the back near the motor and just picking up my switched power from the ignition and constant power off the starter power cable to run everything. No hacking of the original van wiring at all.

I am curious about the 5 wires. Here is what I have in my head, and please correct me if I'm wrong our missing something.

1) Switched power from the ignition (this comes from the plug that fed the original ECU & Fuel Pump relays).
2) Constant power feeding the CE2 fusebox (supplied from main starter power cable).
3) Ground
4) Oil pressure signals (hi & low)
5) Tach signal (this needs to be converted from digital to analog).

1)yes, switched power off the ignition....now i'm assuming here that vanagon's wire color codes are identical to MK1's and MK2's....the black wire off the ignition switch supplies power for the FI system. if you can trace that wire back to the engine compartment you're in business. you simply take that wire and connect it to plug H1 pin #4 in the CE2 box. bam, you just got switched power.

ok, now here's where i haven't jumped into my vangaon wiring diagrams enough yet so bear with me....on MK1's and MK2's the starter wiring circuit is part of the engine loom...now if this is the same on a vangaon then keep reading. to tie into the starter circuit you simply find the somewhat large gauge red wire with black stripe that runs off the ignition switch back to the engine compartment. locate that wire and tie it into the same plug, H1 but pin #1. now you have switched power and starter.

2) yes, constant power. plug Y4 is constant power for the CE2 box. however (and this combines number 3) you also need to ground the box as well, this is done via plug Z2.

4 and 5) this can be done a couple of ways. you can simply pull directly from the sensors themselves off the motor and wire directly to the gauges...or you can dig into the cluster harness plugs, plug U1 and U2, and get the signal from there. now we've (being us MK1 guys) figured out a way to pull signal from the aba coil packs for tach without having to buy a converter...i've got a bad vr coil pack i'm going to play around with to see if i can do the same with it. only problem i see is how the tach might read as it's setup for a four cylinder motor :?

lastly fuel pump. easily done as well. plug M pin #2 is your power wire for your fuel pump. again i'm assuming vanagons are like MK1's in that the fuel pump is simply grounded to the chassis and you only need the power wire off the CE2 box. if i'm wrong and they're like MK2's the ground wire is there as well, pin #1 iirc. it's the only large brown wire in that plug so it should be spotted pretty easily :lol:

now what i'm curious about is if the B3 passat cluster would fit with minimal modification in the vanagon dash. then you could have a working cluster via plug and play. i happen to have a couple of passat clusters laying around and i'll for sure be playing around with them to see if perhaps they can be made to fit. otherwise i'm thinking of just stuffing a nice autometer tach around the dash somewhere as i actually like having a clock in my cluster :lol: