TheSamba.com :: View topic - Brake Line- what size is it?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:52 am

I'm thinking about buying a bubble flaring kit/ tool and I want to be sure that I get the right thing. All the search results I came up with here, it doesn't say specifically, only that it is a "bubble flare" ( I think it was vwTech that offered that in one previous thread) and a lot of people talking about getting complete brake line kit as the solution to poster's problem.

The last time I did my brakes, I ended up breaking off the line right by the caliper. If you think about what that means when your bus is your only ride, it means I missed work the next day just to start with. I mean really that's all it takes and you are basically screwed. I resolved to buy a flare tool to deal with this and I'm ready to do it! Also, besides my bus, working on my 914, had to cut the lines in 2 places as I couldn't get the nuts loose from the rubber lines in back so I'll be doing those soon, too.

Anyway, I know a lot of people are into cheap, but I like to buy expensive tools, and I won't go near harbor freight. :P

I was looking at this blue point kit from snap-on
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&t...ir=catalog

The description states
Set, Metric, Bubble Flaring
For automotive brake systems. Designed for crack free bubble flares on soft wall tubing up to a wall thickness of .028". Adaptors included for 4.75, 6, 8, and 10mm flares.

Does anyone know if this would be adequate/ what size and/or what thickness the lines are on these old vw's?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:56 am

Also, about 'soft wall tubing', I was thinking of redoing the 914 with cunifer, which I think would be alright, as they are pretty soft, but would the stock steel tubes be considered 'soft-wall'?

Anyone have any advice on what tool to buy (not made in china etc :twisted: ) :?:

Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:19 pm

Nathan, I have that tool from snap-on that i bought 30 yr's ago and only used it 1 time and, as a matter of fact it was for my 914.
I had gone from the 914 m/cylinder to a 930 larger cylinder because i put big brakes on the car.

Today it's really not cost effective unless you are restoring alot of cars. and,the cost of brakelines for your bus is reasonable.
just remember to get the metric Bubble flare and NOT the double flare lines. Wolfsburgwest,Bus-Boys or whoever.

front caliper lines are about $5.00 a side 211 611 723H vs. $131.00 for the tool.

The lines are 4.75 mm or 3/16in.

Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:25 pm

old DKP driver wrote: Nathan, I have that tool from snap-on that i bought 30 yr's ago and only used it 1 time and, as a matter of fact it was for my 914.
I had gone from the 914 m/cylinder to a 930 larger cylinder because i put big brakes on the car.

Today it's really not cost effective unless you are restoring alot of cars. and,the cost of brakelines for your bus is reasonable.
just remember to get the metric Bubble flare and NOT the double flare lines. Wolfsburgwest,Bus-Boys or whoever.

front caliper lines are about $5.00 a side 211 611 723H vs. $131.00 for the tool.

The lines are 4.75 mm or 3/16in.

Do you think they'd ship to Australia? no wait nevermind. It probably wouldn't fit. My biggest problem is I need a replacement section going to the MC because the hand brake cable has been sawing through it. Finding a replacement or anyone that can make one hasn't been going too well :(

Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:56 pm

tryin to talk me out of it. :) I'm more interested in the security of being able to do my own repairs. It was a real pain in the butt to get it taken care of. -2 trips to the german garage down the street, by bicycle, as I didn't bring the line with me the first time for fit, though my guess of 6" was right on. The guy charged me $15 for it! and that's just steel.

It looks like I can buy a cunifer complete front and rear brake kit for $135 (actually the link was dead that had that, but just for an idea of cost. The busdepot looks to have a quality kit for the bus for about half that, though my research has made me leary of it actually fitting, as some difference between years? - also that's just steel.

This place has 25' of the stuff for $55. Between the 2 cars, bus and 914, I think I'll almost be able to justify it financially, but the security of having it, I think would make it worthwhile. Here's a good read on the types of flares
http://web.dimebank.com/BrakePlumbing.html

The guy there says that you can make a bubble flare using a 45 degree double flare tool and just not do the 2nd part... which sounds like a good way of ensuring that you'll need to do it again :evil: Also goes into how these fittings are designed to be crushed on once only that repeated removal will end up with weepage, so I'm definitely thinking of redoing them all on both.

I think this is the place to buy the stuff here in the states, cunifer which is copper nickel ferrous, more common in europe; I think they import it,
http://www.fedhillusa.com/

Thanks, DKP, for the confirmation on the size. How's that for talking myself back into it? :wink:

Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:14 pm

Hey if you can, go for it!

i looked into cunifer. It's hard / expensive to import here so I gave up. Usual shipping gouging.

Not sure if it's equivalent but steel brake line costs maybe $2.20/m here so it's one of the cheaper exercises in terms of raw materials. Finding someone that can do proper bubble flares is somewhat harder though.

Still, I'm going to get a cheap line bender so the installation can look pro. besides I'm going to use bundy line for fuel lines. I'm not a fan of fuel hose resting on the starter.

Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:15 pm

RatCamper wrote: Hey if you can, go for it!

i looked into cunifer. It's hard / expensive to import here so I gave up. Usual shipping gouging.

Not sure if it's equivalent but steel brake line costs maybe $2.20/m here so it's one of the cheaper exercises in terms of raw materials. Finding someone that can do proper bubble flares is somewhat harder though.

Still, I'm going to get a cheap line bender so the installation can look pro. besides I'm going to use bundy line for fuel lines. I'm not a fan of fuel hose resting on the starter.

I's not heard of it called that, bundy line, made me think of that horrible tv show! -which goes to show that I only skimmed the brake plumbing link I posted :) I guess that's what US auto manufacturers use for brake line since 1930. I'm not certain it's the same as what you get aftermarket though as wikipedia talks about it being copper coated (maybe that's inside?). The brake plumbing article guy swears by it though, as it expands less under pressure, for your race bus! :P

A good tip I came across to get the stuff straight as it will most certainly be shipped in a coil is to pull it through a hole drilled through a 4x4 piece of wood.

-hard fuel line from the tank sounds awesome. I recently had to lengthen mine there in order to have something to mount the filter to as it was dangling and I feared the weight of it might cause problems. I can really feel the difference in performance that convoluting it made, especially when I take it to like 4000rpms and then shift, it's like there's no fuel in the float and sort of stumbles. Metal lines would support themselves way better allowing you to make a straighter run. There's just the complication of how to attache it to the barb at the tank, and then the filter to figure out how to attach. It would be great to eliminate all the rubber from the fuel line entirely with the ethonal drying problems going on and they're gonna put in more of it , too. :evil:

Mon May 30, 2011 4:47 pm

Still haven't done it. For some reason the price has spiked on brake line and all sorts of tubing have become essentially unavailable. I'm looking at $25 for about 5' of 1/4" steel line. I found a chain that sells rolls of aluminium tube which I thought would be great for fuel but decided to check with the supplier. Lucky i did. none of their stores stock it and they only have one length left. Argh!

Still haven't found anyone to make a chunk of brake line for me. there was a little confusion last time I asked, but what are the metric specifications of the ends, Ie diameter and thread pitch.

there is an off chance that a random roll of unused brake line I have sitting around from a secondhand shop is correct.

Mon May 30, 2011 4:58 pm

Oh ffs. I did a call around and found one place that "may" have something compatible. A length with fittings will cost me somewhere between $30 and $150.

Someone feel like sending me one of these fabled cheap rolls with fittings from the U.S.?

Tue May 31, 2011 7:06 am

I was looking at the fedhill site which is pretty informative.

Quote: Common metric nut assortment for European cars 3/16” tube SAE flare (45 degree inverted/double) or DIN flare (bubble/ISO) 15 pieces
8 ea M1-3 standard metric European nut - 10mm x 1.0 non-threaded lead - 17mm long - SAE flare or DIN flare
4 ea M1L-3 standard metric long European nut - 10mm x 1.0 non-threaded lead - 23mm long - SAE flare or DIN flare
2 ea M6-3 standard European master cylinder nut - 12mm x 1.0 non-threaded lead - 20mm long - SAE flare or DIN flare
1 ea UM14-3 union - 10mm x 1.0 female - 26mm long - DIN flare only
Enough to make 7 brake lines
Long style nuts are preferred in high vibration areas

I'm thinking of getting this nut pack, and some of their brake line, and then a hydraulic brake flaring tool, and I'll still be ahead of what people are charging for sets, easily between the 2 cars, when I get to the bus.
http://store.fedhillusa.com/6nutpack.aspx

It sucks they are out of stock on any thing longer than a 6' roll of the line.

Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:22 pm

nathansnathan wrote: I was looking at the fedhill site which is pretty informative.

Quote: Common metric nut assortment for European cars 3/16” tube SAE flare (45 degree inverted/double) or DIN flare (bubble/ISO) 15 pieces
8 ea M1-3 standard metric European nut - 10mm x 1.0 non-threaded lead - 17mm long - SAE flare or DIN flare
4 ea M1L-3 standard metric long European nut - 10mm x 1.0 non-threaded lead - 23mm long - SAE flare or DIN flare
2 ea M6-3 standard European master cylinder nut - 12mm x 1.0 non-threaded lead - 20mm long - SAE flare or DIN flare
1 ea UM14-3 union - 10mm x 1.0 female - 26mm long - DIN flare only
Enough to make 7 brake lines
Long style nuts are preferred in high vibration areas

I'm thinking of getting this nut pack, and some of their brake line, and then a hydraulic brake flaring tool, and I'll still be ahead of what people are charging for sets, easily between the 2 cars, when I get to the bus.
http://store.fedhillusa.com/6nutpack.aspx

It sucks they are out of stock on any thing longer than a 6' roll of the line.

Napa part# BK 6415021 for the nuts

Napa part# BK 6415473 for a 25' roll of coated steel line

Napa part# SER 41880 for the flare kit

or go to Swagelok and do it all in stainless. We use Swagelok on all of the caliper and master cylinder test stands we build.

Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:40 pm

Vanagon forum
Luxury Tools

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...;start=240

tp

Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:04 pm

I didn't realize that this was a thread I'd started when replying last time :)

Quote: Vanagon forum
Luxury Tools

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...;start=240

tp

That seems pretty sweet, but I can't find the real pro version anywhere with a price on it, Probably more than the Eastwood version which is 250
http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html

Their stuff is questionable. Their paper catalogs will tell you what's imported. I'd steer clear if it is, too many parts to break, and the dies are typically malformed and not hardened right I would think. The blue point one, which I can't find a link to now either was about that much and probably made in america.

Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:07 pm

I guess I should clarify not being able to find the link, I was thinking about the hydraulic Blue Point one which I don;t see anywhere. The guy that did mine at the shop, that is what he had. It was sweet. 8)

Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:14 am

nathansnathan wrote: I guess I should clarify not being able to find the link, I was thinking about the hydraulic Blue Point one which I don;t see anywhere. The guy that did mine at the shop, that is what he had. It was sweet. 8)

The Bluepoint kit is a higher priced relabel manufactured by Mastercool.

The Mastercool 71450 is a kit that will do double and ISO bubble flares. It runs around $325.

Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:59 pm

Just go to a wrecking yard and get the long brake lines from a VOLVO underneath the car. They are running from the front to the back. Same cunifer. Just do not forget to get several fitting from the same car. You have to use brass fittings and you can NOT use steel fittings.

However, you still need the tool to make the flares. If you never made flares / brake lines I recoment to go to a shop and have them flared for you. Just cut the lenght you need + 5mm ( each side = 10mm total) , keep the lines straight. They have to be straight so you can clamp them into the tool.

Do not forget - you (and others too) have only one life? Do not play / fool around if you have no expirience doing this kind of work!

RatCamper wrote: Hey if you can, go for it!

i looked into cunifer. It's hard / expensive to import here so I gave up. Usual shipping gouging.

Not sure if it's equivalent but steel brake line costs maybe $2.20/m here so it's one of the cheaper exercises in terms of raw materials. Finding someone that can do proper bubble flares is somewhat harder though.

Still, I'm going to get a cheap line bender so the installation can look pro. besides I'm going to use bundy line for fuel lines. I'm not a fan of fuel hose resting on the starter.

Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:19 pm

The eastwood tool looks very nice. If the dies are correct and hardend correctly it should work very good. But like always, you have to see it in person to see how strong the complete unit is. I´m using similar tools from KLANN and Hazet for the last 24 years. Very nice tools, but expensive. Like always, getting perfect resaults - takes good tools.

nathansnathan wrote: I didn't realize that this was a thread I'd started when replying last time :)

Quote: Vanagon forum
Luxury Tools

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...;start=240

tp

That seems pretty sweet, but I can't find the real pro version anywhere with a price on it, Probably more than the Eastwood version which is 250
http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html

Their stuff is questionable. Their paper catalogs will tell you what's imported. I'd steer clear if it is, too many parts to break, and the dies are typically malformed and not hardened right I would think. The blue point one, which I can't find a link to now either was about that much and probably made in america.

Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:05 pm

I've got a Rigid double flare kit that I used quite frequently, and have yet to have an issue with. I think it ran me around $100. Just make sure to use a wire brush around the outside of the brake line to get a good grip with it.

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:01 pm

I found out this summer that the brake lines for my 190e benz are the same size/fitting thread as the '59 vw...

I get the want to be able to fabricate everything, but I've got other time/cash demands (kids, wife) that make it more economical to buy quality parts for me to install rather than screwing with flare tools that I'd be experimenting with on a system that I (kids, wife) want a zero failure rate on.

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:33 pm

my59 wrote: I found out this summer that the brake lines for my 190e benz are the same size/fitting thread as the '59 vw...

I get the want to be able to fabricate everything, but I've got other time/cash demands (kids, wife) that make it more economical to buy quality parts for me to install rather than screwing with flare tools that I'd be experimenting with on a system that I (kids, wife) want a zero failure rate on.

I could have told you that about MB brake lines. I've spent a bit of time working on them.

Plus I also get where you are coming from with wanting it right first time. We exist on a relative pittance. I constantly have to make something out of nothing and I either have to go for the choice of quality item, or quality tool. Poor quality anything is poor economy. Our house is slowly being fitted out with commercial / industrial grade things because consumer grade good these days are pathetic. It may cost a little more in the short term but in the long term it pays many times over.