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Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:48 am

Hi,

I searched the worldwideweb for some hours and I also searched this forum, but I did not get the answer I need.

Maybe one of you guys can help me.

I am thinking of evacuating my crankcase via an oilseperator and an electrical vacuum pump. I want to reach zero bar in the crankcase so i need a pump that makes about 1bar underpressure.
Because of the powerloss of mechanical pumps & no beltdrive shall be used on that 16oocc I want to get the system running electrical.

The background is that i want to reach rpm regions where even the aerodynamical drag of the crank has influence, so i want to get rid of that. Second point is to get the oilfoam out of the crankcase asap.

I know that johannes at jpm does with his cases, but i think i ask the forum before getting in touch with him as my last alternative.

Anyone got ideas?

cheers

Jan

Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:07 am

Sunnit Racing sells the type of evac pump you are looking for.

Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:25 am

You mean summit, don`t you?

Searched there also. I didn`t find it, maybe i used the wrong keyword.

Could you give me further advice, please?

cheers

Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:50 am

hi its summit raceing here in ohio i live 40 mins from summit raceing i go there a lot nice store ...there phone number is 1 800 230 3030 there fax number is 1 330 630 5333 there open 24 hours a day 7 days a week customer service number is 1 800 517 1035 there address is summit racing equipment po box 909 akron ohio 44309-0909 there web site is www.summitracing.com hope this helps you out spencerfvee jan_bs wrote: You mean summit, don`t you?

Searched there also. I didn`t find it, maybe i used the wrong keyword.

Could you give me further advice, please?

cheers

Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:59 am

Thanks man,

I already searched their onlineshop, it is not that way that we don`t know about summit in Germany ;-)

What I did not find was any electrical vacuum pump in their onlineshop or in any other shop.

But thanks so far, I am gonna send them an email with my request.

cheers

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:04 am

Yea, Summit, fat fingers!

You use an auxillary vac pump, the same HP dragsters or street racers use to get vacuum for brakes, put a puke tank (dump tank) inline and away your go.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-760150/

Search web using "Electric Pump for Crankcase Evacuation" or "Vacuum Pump for Crankase Evacuation"

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:06 am

What your searching for is a vacuum pump.

An electrical crankcase vacuum pump will never be effective. The power required to work successfully would be more then th electrical system can handle.

The hell with Summit. I use Jeg's. www.jegs.com

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:24 am

Thanks guys.

So you mean I have to use a beltdriven one?

As it is already in use on raceengines I believe the loss of power because of using a belt is not that high than the effect it brings. right?

cheers

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:29 am

The electrical vacuum pumps that Jegs and Summit sells are intended for drawing a static vacuum on brake boosters, not drawing a vacuum on a crankcase. It simply will not work.

There are a few places that do make electric vacuum pumps intended to evacuate a crankcase, such as Star: http://starvacuumpumps.com/products/STR.04.06.000

As you can see, the price is prohibitive; being 24-volt also complicates the situation.

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:33 am

jan_bs wrote:
As it is already in use on raceengines I believe the loss of power because of using a belt is not that high than the effect it brings. right?

Whether electric or mechanical, you have to provide energy to power the vacuum pump. The only way you will not have parasitic losses with an electric vacuum pump is if your race is short enough to power the pump directly from the battery WITHOUT having to use an alternator (recharging the battery in the pits). If you are running an alternator, there will be a load on the engine to turn the alternator for all electrical systems (e.g. fuel pump, ignition, EFI, electric vacuum pump, etc).

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:33 am

jegs ask for lary jones. he probably dont rember me but I remember him when he was 3 feet tall, 1/2 of what he is now.he should remember my car.white prostreet duster in FL.I saw his dad this summer, said lary was #1 sale man. and he should be he grew up in it. good luck, check the amp draw & cfm. but if it will work on a v8 it should do just fine on any vw.

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:53 am

Yes, already thought about it for a while. . The track will be about 8 miles long ;-) The weight of a few batteries will just be right to keep the nose down, so I don`t worry about tthe elctrical energy issue. Will take me af few years to built, but I am tired of 1776 w110 engines and want to make it my own way.

Short summary on what I want to reach during the next 5 years:

16oocc Type 1 >200 HP 11.000rpm

2011 I want to work on the case, make it ready for evacuation, double ignition and few other mods

2012 I want to work on a set of revmaster heads

and so on...

Bit early to make big words about that one ;-) Still working theoretically and making budgets for components. I will keep you updated about the progress.

Thanks for your help, its amazing how i could leave this forum apart for so many years.

cheers

Jan

Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:56 pm

hi if you dont mind me asking what kind of race car are you building ..it sounds like its going to be one fast car ..i realy like the 1600cc getting 200 hp and turnning 11,000 rpm is it going to be turbo chargerd? i had a 1600cc motor that i draged raced years ago i took it to 10,000rpm it never had blow by but that was 1/4 mile raceing lol will you keep us posted on your 1600cc build ? spencerfvee......... jan_bs wrote: Yes, already thought about it for a while. . The track will be about 8 miles long ;-) The weight of a few batteries will just be right to keep the nose down, so I don`t worry about tthe elctrical energy issue. Will take me af few years to built, but I am tired of 1776 w110 engines and want to make it my own way.

Short summary on what I want to reach during the next 5 years:

16oocc Type 1 >200 HP 11.000rpm

2011 I want to work on the case, make it ready for evacuation, double ignition and few other mods

2012 I want to work on a set of revmaster heads

and so on...

Bit early to make big words about that one ;-) Still working theoretically and making budgets for components. I will keep you updated about the progress.

Thanks for your help, its amazing how i could leave this forum apart for so many years.

cheers

Jan

Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:48 pm

Why don't you use the exhaust to suck out the crankcase pressure? They make a kit with a weld in tube and one way check valve then hook it to your breather box.

Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:02 am

Good mornng Spencer,

no, its not gonna become a turbocharged engine. That would be to easy, wouldn`t it? ;-)

The car for what I will built this engine will be built be a few friends of mine. They are trying to build a racecar in memory of bernd rosemeyer and his Autounion Typ C. Hopefully its going to be a bit more safe.

I am trying to reach this horsepower with reducing the losses as much as I can and make a as light as possible valvetrain to reach the rpm`s

As I said before its a bit early to make big words about it, but for sure I will share the project with you guys.

Is there a thread regarding to your 10.000 rpm engine up here on the page?

I think we are leaving the topic a bit ;-) I will start an extra thread on the engine build as well as on the cars build when things have left the blablabla-Stadium ;-) The work on both, engine & car, will start may 2011 and will take hopefully not more than 5 years, so it will be a very slow process.

Cheers

Hi vdubnut,

I am not sure if i can regulate it the way it needs to be regulated to work as proper as i want it to over the whole rpm-range. And I do not want the oilfoam to sucked out of the engine but be separated and brought back into the dry sump. No cooling fan is planned on that engine, so i will need every drop of oil to keep the system running.

Further problem i see is that I will have a 4-4 exhaust system.

And by the way, I find a pump more sexy than a valve ;-)

cheers

Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:16 pm

hi... back in 1978.. when i did not have a lot of money... i built a 1600cc motor with 10:1 CR dual 40 dcnf webers .a big empi inch pincher too car it was wild lol .. i used a CB small dry sump pump and used a CB 4QT deep sump ... i made a block off plate out of thin flat plate to go between the deep sump and the bottom of the vw case this was to superate them from each other .. so i ended up with a holding tank for the oil in the deep sump and then the vw case was allway dry from oil the big thing with dry sumps i have learnned is they allways fill the vw case up with oil when they sit over night.. then you have to drain the vw case of oil and put the oil back into the dry sump tank i allso feal that the dry sump pump acted like a vac pump in a small way... i feal the small CB dry sump pump does not use that much HP to pump the oil from the case to the tank and then pump the oil back into the motor i feal a lot of dry sump pumps sold now adays are over kill way to big and use a lot of HP to run them that motor ran 13;60 1/4 mile oil presure was allways from 45lbs to 60lbs you have to remmber that i was only running the motor for 13 seconds at a time lol.. i do know that some formula vee guys have run this same pump on there formula vee race cars ... with a power pulley that they machined to work with the dry sump pump... these were 1600cc motors what class they ran i dont know i think there rpms were around 5,500 to 6,500 rpms i am not sure that was a long time ago lol you could talk to some of the formula vee guys in germany i am sure they would share info on what they are doing to make there 1600cc motor last and run well on the track if your doing a 200hp motor it very well might need a bigger oil dry sump pump and bigger tank its some to think about and for you to look into to see if it would work on your motor i do know that there are 1700cc motors in vw dragsters that run 1,100 rpm or more and run 9 S in the 1/4 mile they allways told me the HP is in the heads they used gene berg heads that cost $3,200.00 a pair that was back in 1986 i think clyde berg did the heads for them he would know more about the heads than i would just my two cents something for you to think about keep us posted on your car and motor i love what your doing and good luck spencerfvee jan_bs wrote: Good mornng Spencer,

no, its not gonna become a turbocharged engine. That would be to easy, wouldn`t it? ;-)

The car for what I will built this engine will be built be a few friends of mine. They are trying to build a racecar in memory of bernd rosemeyer and his Autounion Typ C. Hopefully its going to be a bit more safe.

I am trying to reach this horsepower with reducing the losses as much as I can and make a as light as possible valvetrain to reach the rpm`s

As I said before its a bit early to make big words about it, but for sure I will share the project with you guys.

Is there a thread regarding to your 10.000 rpm engine up here on the page?

I think we are leaving the topic a bit ;-) I will start an extra thread on the engine build as well as on the cars build when things have left the blablabla-Stadium ;-) The work on both, engine & car, will start may 2011 and will take hopefully not more than 5 years, so it will be a very slow process.

Cheers

Hi vdubnut,

I am not sure if i can regulate it the way it needs to be regulated to work as proper as i want it to over the whole rpm-range. And I do not want the oilfoam to sucked out of the engine but be separated and brought back into the dry sump. No cooling fan is planned on that engine, so i will need every drop of oil to keep the system running.

Further problem i see is that I will have a 4-4 exhaust system.

And by the way, I find a pump more sexy than a valve ;-)

cheers

Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:26 pm

jan_bs
have you seen this sight about converting a 12v tire inhalator in to a vacuum pump...
http://www.instructables.com/id/convert-a-tire-inflator-type-air-compressor-into-a/
I don't know if it will have enough vacuum to do what you are tring to do but if you were to use a reservoir can it might work, you can find them in most wrecking yards on cars that had covers over the head lights, or you can make your own. you will need a seal on the crank pulley and have to seal up your breather to get a negative vacuum in the crank case, one nice thing about a motor with a vacuum seal is, they dont leak as much oil as with a open system. Have you thought about gas ports in the piston to help seal the top ring at high RPM's?

Casey

Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:13 pm

1600 and 200 HP. That is a lot of HP and RPM for a 1600 pushrod motor. Most engines in that range I've known did it with big pistons and very short strokes to keep the sweep speeds down. Then they opened up the volume with min of 4 valves per cylinder and very short intake stacks. Wish you the best success in getting there. Evac of the case will be one of the smaller issues although case distortion may come in to play. Some of the systems I've read about that were successful used the exhaust to scavenge the crankcase. The articles implied that the (small) gains come from reduced airflow between pistons even though one is pulling the air to it as another is pushing the air, rather than air's interference with the crank. Oil wrapping around the crank like taffy is the real HP robber at those RPMs.

Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:41 pm

You can make 200 with a 1680 i have a few engines that make more than that. Briab

Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:21 pm

Check this out! The plot thickens on page 7.

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc6406d2fff04f7d96c72e60b07c7f6d&topic=3257.0