TheSamba.com :: View topic - Which 1600 engine rebuild kit should I buy?

Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:41 am

Just curious as to which engine rebuild kit is best for me? I was looking at this one for my vans 1600cc engine.. http://www.kustom1warehouse.net/1600cc_Engine_Rebuild_Kits_for_VW_Volkswagen_p/enginekit1600.htm

Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:12 am

Until you have torn down, inspected internals u can't know what u need, ex: case mains, how much does thrust need cutting ,crank need grinding etc. When case needs are determined i would have needed bearings 'IN HAND' before any machine work is done. Ordering a kit on a guess will end up with stuff u can't use.

Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:30 am

Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:09 am

Weird thing about that kit is it has lifters but no cams to choose from. Whatever you do, get your lifters and cam from the same place and make sure they are compatable. I think you get better parts in general by buying them separately from a reputable vendors. Aircooled.net, cb performance, etc.

Have you rebuilt a motor before? Do you have Wilson's book to guide you through the tear down, inspection of parts, and the rebuild? Its a must. There are also alot of threads here on rebuilding motors, part selections and snags hit along the way so do your homework and get the best parts you can afford. I like using Mahle dished pistons on buses for a lower compresion ratio but you could get flat tops and get the extra volume somewhere else like the head chamber or use barrell shims. Dished pistons have gone up in price and are a little harder to find these days. Good luck.

Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:49 am

From the Kit Description:
"Main bearings and camshaft are not included" I don't think I'd buy from them either.
I believe a 1776 with dual carbs are the preferred option for the 1600 replacement. More low end torque to push your heavy Bus.

Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:05 pm

since you appear to be in PA you might consider BusDepot for your items. Machine work you will need to find someone local who can look over the case, crank and heads. Persoanlly I prefer to buy my bearings from the machine shop who does my work, then I mic the crank and make sure the bearings are correct. Our cam is from WebCam as they are excellent. So is Engle.

You might consider asking the moderator or Everett to move this to the engine forum as you will get better results there I think on generic engine build questions.

Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:27 am

Forget about a "kit".
First thing is get and study Tom Wilson's engine building book. If you don't spend the $17 for it you will end up throwing a lot more money than that in the dumpster.
Inspect all the parts per the books info.
Do some serious homework and find a quality machine shop. I wouldn't even suggest to you to use a machine shop unless it is VW specific. There are too many VW specific only items and tricks that only a VW builder knows about.
SG's advice about having the machine shop supply the rod and main bearings is good.

Here is what you will need a quality VW shop and a pro builder for-
-Pro inspection of the case for cracks. You won't be able to see or find them yourself if they exist.
-Tank the case to clean it. (that's just the starter, you will need to finish cleaning it).
-Determine if case line boring is needed.
-Inspect the crank. If it's OK, probably have it polished.
-Machine the case for full flow. You will at least want to put a filter on it.
-Check, straighten, and resize the rods. Have them weight balanced.
-Possibly (probably) have the case decks faced.
-Depending on what your case is, and it's condition, you might need stud inserts installed. And deep stud #3.
-Maybe face the flywheel.
-Have the shop handle a balance job of the rotating group. Crank, flywheel, crank pulley, pressure plate.
-Quality rebuild of the heads. Don't skimp. Guides, new exhaust valves, tripple angle valve job, machine barrel mounting surface. And be sure and have them CC the chambers. I also have my head man flycut and semi-hemi machine the chambers. And use good used German heads. You can get new poor quality heads for the cost of a good rebuild job but don't do it.

That's mainly what you will need a shop to do. Then you can determine what other individual parts you will need. A "kit" won't do it.
When you get your new cylinders and pistons check the pistons for accurate weight balance. Possibly have the shop do it. Or you very accurately do it. They might need balancing. My last set was way far out of balance.
Determine all your build criteria and choose the type of cam you want. Cam and lifter coordination is very important. Don't reuse your old cam, lifters, and oil pump. 99% chance they are worn out. My choice was an Engle mild bus cam and reground and parkerized German lifters.

If you stick with both Wilson and Bentley you'll be in good shape.

Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:59 am

whats the difference between a bus 1600 and a beetle 1600

Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:57 am

The bus engine has a support mount at the rear of the engine to allow it to be supported by the moutache bar. Beeltes don't. In a pinch you can use a kit like this that goes into the oil pump....

http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=0091480

Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:47 pm

so you could get a rebuild kit that is made for a beetle and put it in the bus engine?

Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:39 am

bugger101 wrote: so you could get a rebuild kit that is made for a beetle and put it in the bus engine?
Back to basics.
-Bug and bus engines are the same engine except 3 threaded holes for mounting in a bus. Not needed in a bug.
-Some bug engines can be drilled and tapped for the 3 mounting holes. Some can't but the simple cheap adapter can be used instead.
-Later replacement engine cases are universal cases and have the holes and can be used in either bugs or busses.
-40 year old bugs are very apt to have replacement universal cases or else replacement rebuilt engines with the bus mounting holes.

Same parts are used to rebuild either a bug or bus since it is the same engine. As mentioned before, when rebuilding an engine forget about a "kit". You buy individual parts as needed. When you go to the market to buy groceries for dinner do you buy a dinner kit?
If you pull a complete engine out of a bug to just put in a bus you will also need to change the front tin to a bus tin. It's just a simple external item and has nothing to do with the basic engine.

Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:54 am

tumadre776 wrote: I ordered one from kustom1 and all of the parts were wrong. I sent it back 2 weeks ago. and besides charging me a 20% restocking fee, they will not answer the phones or email and still have not given me my money back.

So let me get this straight. You have a late model bus with a type 4 pancake motor (Most importantly you failed to mention this detail but I can see it in your profile picture). You went online to Kustom 1 and ordered a 1776 engine kit and you assumed this engine kit was going to fit your type 4 1800cc pancake motor. Yes, all the parts are wrong for a late model bus. Anyone with a minimal amount of VW knowledge knows that these two motors are completely different. You are so quick to bash Kustom 1 in the forum but conveniently omitted important details that keep you from looking stupid. You did not get charged any restock fee. Saying restocked you 20% is a lie. Yes, you ate the shipping cost. All parts were refunded except the shipping without a restock fee. ($553 on 12/10) I offered to get you type 4 parts and you said no. We are open 10-6 pst. which means you can’t call until 1pm est.

As for the rest of this blog about engine kits. So Cal customers are so spoiled. We have every machine shop and vw parts store at our disposal. Parts are cheaper and so is the machine work. Rebuilding a crank, rods and balancing can get expensive when you are out of California. Yes, it sounds great to get everything from the local machine shop but parts can cost up to double the price of a parts store or in kit form. Most of the other companies offering engine kits have china pistons and cast or china cranks. They say 100% new but don't disclose the origin or the quality of the parts. You may think you can reuse some old parts but for the most part, when you dismantle an old VW motor, the majority of parts need be replaced or rebuilt and machine work needs to be done. The reason main bearings are made optional is 50% of the people have not even taken the motor apart and do not know the line bore of the case. You can’t sell main bearings if the customer is guessing the size. If you do know the size of your line bore, the option for main bearings are listed in the engine kit. As for camshafts, Kustom 1 offers about 50 different grinds. From stock to wild. You just pick a camshaft after you are done with you engine kit. It’s not rocket science. I have a 71 camper bus. I built a 1776 with dual 40idfs, dms 69 crank, stock flywheel , 110 cam, balanced, full flowed, with a tall ring and pinion trans. I run a 72 plate cooler under the car and doghouse cooler with an oil filter. The bus cruises 75mph all day long. It is a great combo. A 100 cam might have worked just as good. I run a colder plug and electronic ignition with a 40k coil. This keeps the heads cooler and the plugs from fouling.

Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:42 am

dont get an engine kit, go to a bug shop that has lots of parts laying around, try and find a cheap counter wieghted crank, get it balanced, get a barrel,piston ring kit, get your heads rebuilt, do the compression ratio math, get lifters rebuilt, or buy new ones, buy elephant feet ajusters for your rocker arms, buy a ok cam, get your flywheel lightened and balanced, and you'd spend about the same amount of money as a engine kit, and you'll bo soo happy...=]

Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:48 am

Kustom1warehouse.net wrote: tumadre776 wrote: I ordered one from kustom1 and all of the parts were wrong. I sent it back 2 weeks ago. and besides charging me a 20% restocking fee, they will not answer the phones or email and still have not given me my money back.

So let me get this straight. You have a late model bus with a type 4 pancake motor (Most importantly you failed to mention this detail but I can see it in your profile picture). You went online to Kustom 1 and ordered a 1776 engine kit and you assumed this engine kit was going to fit your type 4 1800cc pancake motor. Yes, all the parts are wrong for a late model bus. Anyone with a minimal amount of VW knowledge knows that these two motors are completely different. You are so quick to bash Kustom 1 in the forum but conveniently omitted important details that keep you from looking stupid. You did not get charged any restock fee. Saying restocked you 20% is a lie. Yes, you ate the shipping cost. All parts were refunded except the shipping without a restock fee. ($553 on 12/10) I offered to get you type 4 parts and you said no. We are open 10-6 pst. which means you can’t call until 1pm est.

As for the rest of this blog about engine kits. So Cal customers are so spoiled. We have every machine shop and vw parts store at our disposal. Parts are cheaper and so is the machine work. Rebuilding a crank, rods and balancing can get expensive when you are out of California. Yes, it sounds great to get everything from the local machine shop but parts can cost up to double the price of a parts store or in kit form. Most of the other companies offering engine kits have china pistons and cast or china cranks. They say 100% new but don't disclose the origin or the quality of the parts. You may think you can reuse some old parts but for the most part, when you dismantle an old VW motor, the majority of parts need be replaced or rebuilt and machine work needs to be done. The reason main bearings are made optional is 50% of the people have not even taken the motor apart and do not know the line bore of the case. You can’t sell main bearings if the customer is guessing the size. If you do know the size of your line bore, the option for main bearings are listed in the engine kit. As for camshafts, Kustom 1 offers about 50 different grinds. From stock to wild. You just pick a camshaft after you are done with you engine kit. It’s not rocket science. I have a 71 camper bus. I built a 1776 with dual 40idfs, dms 69 crank, stock flywheel , 110 cam, balanced, full flowed, with a tall ring and pinion trans. I run a 72 plate cooler under the car and doghouse cooler with an oil filter. The bus cruises 75mph all day long. It is a great combo. A 100 cam might have worked just as good. I run a colder plug and electronic ignition with a 40k coil. This keeps the heads cooler and the plugs from fouling.

Always find it funny that there are always two sides to every story. The internet lets people fly off the handle without stating all the facts. Nice to see someone stick up for themselves. What a crazy business!

Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:59 am

Kustom1warehouse.net wrote: tumadre776 wrote: I ordered one from kustom1 and all of the parts were wrong. I sent it back 2 weeks ago. and besides charging me a 20% restocking fee, they will not answer the phones or email and still have not given me my money back.

So let me get this straight. You have a late model bus with a type 4 pancake motor (Most importantly you failed to mention this detail but I can see it in your profile picture). You went online to Kustom 1 and ordered a 1776 engine kit and you assumed this engine kit was going to fit your type 4 1800cc pancake motor. Yes, all the parts are wrong for a late model bus. Anyone with a minimal amount of VW knowledge knows that these two motors are completely different. You are so quick to bash Kustom 1 in the forum but conveniently omitted important details that keep you from looking stupid. You did not get charged any restock fee. Saying restocked you 20% is a lie. Yes, you ate the shipping cost. All parts were refunded except the shipping without a restock fee. ($553 on 12/10) I offered to get you type 4 parts and you said no. We are open 10-6 pst. which means you can’t call until 1pm est.

As for the rest of this blog about engine kits. So Cal customers are so spoiled. We have every machine shop and vw parts store at our disposal. Parts are cheaper and so is the machine work. Rebuilding a crank, rods and balancing can get expensive when you are out of California. Yes, it sounds great to get everything from the local machine shop but parts can cost up to double the price of a parts store or in kit form. Most of the other companies offering engine kits have china pistons and cast or china cranks. They say 100% new but don't disclose the origin or the quality of the parts. You may think you can reuse some old parts but for the most part, when you dismantle an old VW motor, the majority of parts need be replaced or rebuilt and machine work needs to be done. The reason main bearings are made optional is 50% of the people have not even taken the motor apart and do not know the line bore of the case. You can’t sell main bearings if the customer is guessing the size. If you do know the size of your line bore, the option for main bearings are listed in the engine kit. As for camshafts, Kustom 1 offers about 50 different grinds. From stock to wild. You just pick a camshaft after you are done with you engine kit. It’s not rocket science. I have a 71 camper bus. I built a 1776 with dual 40idfs, dms 69 crank, stock flywheel , 110 cam, balanced, full flowed, with a tall ring and pinion trans. I run a 72 plate cooler under the car and doghouse cooler with an oil filter. The bus cruises 75mph all day long. It is a great combo. A 100 cam might have worked just as good. I run a colder plug and electronic ignition with a 40k coil. This keeps the heads cooler and the plugs from fouling.

welcome. Quite true about So Cal people are spoiled. We are in No Cal and have to drive 500 miles to get machine work done for a T4.

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:51 am

So nice to see great replies on this thread. The last one was a few years ago, however I will ask my question anyway hoping for a great reply.

I have looked around and I am wanting a complete stock kit. I am rebuilding a Thing motor, I am wanting to keep it completely stock as I think I have matching numbers (not sure yet, don't have the birth certificate, but numbers are in range). So that said, if I am wanting to keep it all official VW, I need VW rebuild. The kit at Mid America is cheap, but I am sure its a china kit.

I am not looking for the advice to 'only buy what you need', I knew from the beginning that this project was going to cost, so its not an issue of that at all. I know I need to know my line bore and thrust bore, again not an issue.

I want to know a reputable source that I can get a complete kit, cylinders, pistons, crank, rods, everything, and know they are VW.

I can take this thing to shows and say "everything was rebuilt using VW" or at least German parts and feel good that I'm not lying.

I love this car as much as a family member.

Kustom 1, I would love to hear from you!

Thanks guys!!

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:35 am

ElectricianMD wrote: So nice to see great replies on this thread. The last one was a few years ago, however I will ask my question anyway hoping for a great reply.

I have looked around and I am wanting a complete stock kit. I am rebuilding a Thing motor, I am wanting to keep it completely stock as I think I have matching numbers (not sure yet, don't have the birth certificate, but numbers are in range). So that said, if I am wanting to keep it all official VW, I need VW rebuild. The kit at Mid America is cheap, but I am sure its a china kit.

I am not looking for the advice to 'only buy what you need', I knew from the beginning that this project was going to cost, so its not an issue of that at all. I know I need to know my line bore and thrust bore, again not an issue.

I want to know a reputable source that I can get a complete kit, cylinders, pistons, crank, rods, everything, and know they are VW.

I can take this thing to shows and say "everything was rebuilt using VW" or at least German parts and feel good that I'm not lying.

I love this car as much as a family member.

Kustom 1, I would love to hear from you!

Thanks guys!!

Good luck. I'm doing the same thing right now, and it's NOT the kind of thing you can just order as a kit. www.aircooled.net has wonderful customer support, and they will be able to make a kit for you, but most of their parts are on the higher end of the aftermarket spectrum. Can't hurt to email them.

I've found a few NOS goodies- crank, case, and bearings- at a old tyme-y shop that ONLY services ACVWs. These aren't parts that you can just click "buy now" online. :?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:48 am

ElectricianMD wrote: ..........I can take this thing to shows and say "everything was rebuilt using VW" or at least German parts and feel good that I'm not lying. ........
That's going to be a rather formidable task, good luck.

X2 on the aircooled.net once your machinist determines what you need, avoid RMMW and CIP. If you want to claim all German you'd better not throw anything out as you'll be recycling most of what's in there now, just what makes you think it needs a rebuild anyways?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:51 am

asiab3 wrote: ...I've found a few NOS goodies- crank, case, and bearings- at a old tyme-y shop that ONLY services ACVWs. These aren't parts that you can just click "buy now" online. :?

Great! Thanks for the tip! We do have an old VW shop here in Nebraska, I'll call see what they have for NOS. I took a glance at your Flickr, awesome looking type 2! Some times I wish I would've kept my '74! Good looking dog and girl too! (hopefully don't sound like a creeper).

But at first when I seen the $799 for the complete kit at Mid America, I got really excited, then when I realized that my motor is most likely original, I would like to keep it that way.

Thanks again everybody!

Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:06 am

ElectricianMD wrote: asiab3 wrote: ...I've found a few NOS goodies- crank, case, and bearings- at a old tyme-y shop that ONLY services ACVWs. These aren't parts that you can just click "buy now" online. :?

Great! Thanks for the tip! We do have an old VW shop here in Nebraska, I'll call see what they have for NOS. I took a glance at your Flickr, awesome looking type 2! Some times I wish I would've kept my '74! Good looking dog and girl too! (hopefully don't sound like a creeper).

But at first when I seen the $799 for the complete kit at Mid America, I got really excited, then when I realized that my motor is most likely original, I would like to keep it that way.

Thanks again everybody!
I am not a big fan of china cranks. I am old school and still prefer german crankshafts. We can still buy them, why not use them. I use DMS. Demello machine shop for rebuilding stock cranks, 69 counter weighted and stroker cranks. AA pistons china pistons have been around for a long time and I have not had any returns or problems. We still offer mahle pistons in stock or forged. Mahle brazil is still available. As for trying to build with all german parts, good luck, 20 years ago you could but it seems like only the company names are german but they have it made somewhere else. If you are trying to be a vw purest, you may be trapped. There are a lot of good parts out there. It is just trying to figure out which ones are good and last. Most companies are only trying to sell the cheapest part and make the highest profit. They do not care about quality. Only profits. We use Schadek oil pumps, same ones gene berg uses, elring gasket sets and flywheel seals, Kolbenschmidt rod bearings, Kolb gland nuts, German cranks and rods, German rebuilt heads and flywheels. Before I built my 1776 in my bus, I had a 1600cc with Mahle forge pistons, counter weighted crank, rebuilt german heads, german rebuilt flywheel. All balanced. It was a great motor but kind of gutless. I needed more power to push my bus. 1776cc worked out better.