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Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:26 pm

I am about to have a 2007 or 2110 engine built and I am not sure about single or dual valve springs?? Here is my plan; new case, 78 or 82 crank, 5.4 rods, 90.5 P & C, 110 cam, 1.1/1 rocker, staight cut cam gear, 40 x 35.5 mildly ported heads, 44 webers, on CB big beef manifolds, compufire distributorless ignition, 1 5/8 exhaust. I am going to use this engine in a 58 panel with a 72 IRS trans conversion and 17" wheels with 205/40/17 tires. I don't plan on racing but I might want to push it a little hard now and then. The panel is primarily my weekend driver. I do take it on 200 + mile trips to car show around california and want it to be dependable and long lasting. My understanding is that for an engine that may rev a little high, dual springs prevent valve float but at the same time dual springs can cause excess stress on the rocker arms and push rods. If dual springs are fine would a different cam with 1.4/1 rockers (GB offers a cam that when used w/1.4/1 rockers acts like a 110 cam) be easier on the rest of the valve train??? Or should I just stick with single valve springs??? Thanks, Brad

Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:52 pm

Dual springs.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:19 am

You don't need them. And they do cause more wear on parts. You're putting a bigger engine in to offset your weight problem. LOL.

The cam you are talking about is like the engle FK-65. Good low to mid range torque. 5,500 rpm is about it for the cam and single springs can handle that.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:22 am

You need dual springs if it will see over 5000 RPM regularly.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:58 am

The question is this, how many miles do you want to get out of it between rebuilds? Also, they are routs to go with Double Valve Springs but they are at a steep Costs to get the longevity. I run Single Heavy Duty Valve Springs and are happy with the RPM range, I run a 5,400 RPM Rev Control Rotor to ensure against over revving, Don't want to float a Valve..... RB

Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:16 am

I remember reading a while back about someone using a W110 with 1.25's in a stroker for a bus and claiming great torque and top end as well. The Engle V26 and 1.4's would also work , although I would guess the W110/1.25 combo would be better suited for a bus, with 6 degrees less duration @.050" and about .020" more lift. Dual springs will be needed for either of these combos. I would break the W110 in (and run the first few miles) with single springs and 1.1 rockers and use a good break in oil with enough zinc to make sure the lifter/cam surfaces mate properly. When the break in oil comes out, make sure your oil (or oil/additive) choice has enough zinc to ensure camshaft and lifter survival, which will be essential with dual springs. The newest SM rated oils are NOT adequate for our ancient flat tappet wonders. Longevity is not a problem with dual springs if the cam and lifters are properly broken in and there is enough zinc in the oil used throughout the motor's life.

If you are still up in the air over stroke length, consider that the 82mm crank (and resulting extra cubic inches) will mean more torque, so important in a bus. GO BIG! :twisted:

Just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al

Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:55 am

I'd say your in a either way situation with your combo and in those cases I'd go the safe route and do the double springs. What you want though is the run of the mill, budget double springs.....don't over think it with the "well, if I go double I may as well use the strongest ones on the market". You don't need it, just cheap doubles which are basically an intermediate step. If you didn't buy the cam yet then get the springs with the cam from Engle. You can't go wrong using their recommended springs.

RC

Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:53 am

Great advice from all here who say go with dual springs. Like RC said, use Engle components - in fact, you may want to use their whole deal, cam, lifters and springs.

A couple of observations. You won't need straight cut cam gears unless you like the noise. From a compatibility standpoint straight cuts aren't needed till you get into the really heavy, high rate springs like chevy type or K800s. You don't need those springs with the W110 though.

Also, make sure you are getting enough air to the engine compartment on your bus. A 2+ liter motor with 44IDFs will draw a lot of air, stealing a significant amount from the cooling fan.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:58 am

Dual springs on a 110 cam is a waste and you run the risk of ruining parts if you use them. That is too much spring pressure and you can cause the cam to go flat among other things especially if you don't plan on racing. If you had planned on racing hopefully you wouldn't waste your time on a 110. If you go bigger than a 110 and you plan on racing, then go with dual springs. If you use 1.25's it probably wouldn't be a bad idea but as mentioned before make sure you break the cam in on the singles only.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:39 am

Single springs!!!! Dual springs are the most overused aftermarket part on VW engines. I drank the "if you don't use dual springs, the sky will fall" kool aid and ended up breaking inner springs. I used a W120 and 1.25's. After I went back to singles, no problems, no valve float etc. Don't get me wrong, dual springs have their place, but it's not with a W110 and 1.1's.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:03 am

Singles. Avoid wear.
It sounds like you do not need duals.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:33 am

Well Folks, it's 5 - 4, Duals over the Singles in the top of the 8th inning. We're in for a whiz bang of a finish here!

Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:42 am

VW66GUY wrote: I do take it on 200 + mile trips to car show around california and want it to be dependable and long lasting.

Dual springs are used for hi rev applications.
Your engine is by no means going to make that bus "fly". Sure it will be quicker than stock... but its not going to be a really effing fast bus. You are not going to beat very many new cars in your bus... sure your going to want to. But you won't.
If you are not going to race your bus against other cars I find it unlikely that you will need to rev the engine past 5k very often with normal/freeway driving.
Use a single spring and your valve train may have the possibilities to out last duals by two fold. Know your limits and drive the bus correctly.
To be honest I'm not sure that a E110 would have much of a powerband in a bus after 5k RPMs anyways.

E110 in that size engine is very tame. Will have a good power band and get you pretty good MPG's. If you want to race the engine, get a bigger cam and duals though you should not expect it to last as long as the mild combo you are asking about.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:05 pm

if that was mine I'd run singles with 1.1s, duals with 1.25s. HD Shafts and chromoly retainers with both.

Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:07 pm

Im building a similar engine. 78mm crank, Engle 110, dual 44's, straight cut cam gear and the like but have read and read that unless your dragging or going to rev the hell outta it just go with some single HD valve springs. Just what I have found from reading and talking to a few buddies with two liter motors in their dailys. Just my opinion on my findings though. Post results either way.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:35 pm

So instead of starting a new thread, I figure I can prolong this one.

I have set of heads I am putting on a new 2276. 42x37.5 valves, Webcam 122/125, will likely almost never see over 5k RPM.

The heads had dual springs on them. In my normal tear down, clean inspect etc. I found that one set of the dual springs had 10Lbs less pressure at my seated height than the other 3. The three read ~161, this one read 151.

Took them to Geoff Hart to see if I was using a bad spring tool and he confirmed the 10lb difference.

I happened to get a new set of single 4014 bugpack springs today, and they read 155 at my seated height. Right in the middle. They were new in the pack and the fellow only wanted $20 for them. Figured it wouldn't hurt to at least have them to compare.

I was considering running the single springs so long as they all measure the same pressure, or within a reasonable window (1 or 2 lbs? - really, what is OK?).

Then I came to the dual or single question. Reading here, it looks like single will be fine for my setup.

One suggestion was to shim the weak spring a tad to get the seated pressure equal. But at .506" lift. things are starting to look tight from the bind perspective.

Suggestions?

I am measuring a seated height of 1.495" - that is NOT including the spring hat. That is from the bottom of the hat to the thin shim used in the base of the head, which I am guessing is about .015" thick or so. I was told by a few people that they are good to keep the spring from eating into the aluminum head as it rotates.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:01 pm

Gerg, with 0.500" lift and 42 x 37.5mm valves I'd actually install new doubles but that's me. Yes, you should always use shims under heavier than stock springs to protect the heads. Just a thought to ponder, it's not just how high the engine revs but how much faster (than stock) that it revs.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:11 pm

OP will be fine with HD singles.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:21 pm

Well, I still have to take the other head apart and check those springs. Maybe one of them is a bit high and I can mix things up to even out the love.

I measured the inners and outers, and the inners are identical. It is the outer spring that is the problem.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:30 pm

HD singles for sure. I ran them on a 110 with 1.25s for years revving to 6000 racing never had a problem.

brad

Oh, and don't forget to put 48's on it :roll:

brad