TheSamba.com :: View topic - Starter problems

Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:41 am

Hi guys,

So the other day my van wouldn't start, had lots of power to the accessories, but when I turned the key...nothing. I gave the starter a few taps with a hammer, and now she starts right up. My friend who's a mechanic says this will happen again if the solenoid stops in the same pace again, so I need to do something before I take the family on any camping trips. My question is, is the fact that it started right up once I tapped on the starter enough to diagnose that the starter is the sole issue? Ive read threads on here about contacts, ignition switches, etc... I'd like to eliminate all that before buying a starter, but it sounds like that's what it is. Any input? Thanks!

Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:34 am

VanMan2009 wrote: ...I'd like to eliminate all that before buying a starter, but it sounds like that's what it is.

Not sure a new starter is really needed -- I would think the more likely culprit is the solenoid which can be removed, cleaned and re-lubed.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:27 pm

Hmmm, I didn't know that was an option! This is why I love this place :lol:

So If the solenoid can be cleaned and regreased, at what point do you know whether you need a new starter? Would a bad starter give different symptoms? I'll dig through some threads here and see if I can find instruction on how to do what you describe. I assume it's also in the Bentley, but I haven't bought one yet :oops:

Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:31 pm

The solenoid can cause the problem.
It can also be a sticky bendix. It the shaft doesn't fully retract after starting, it won't do anything except click. Tapping it with a hammer will cause it to drop back onto the contacts and work as normal.
I've also seen this symtom from a cracked starter housing (not on a VW)
The crack caused side pressure on the spur gear and prevented retraction.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:47 pm

If the problem is that the solenoid needs to be cleaned and re-lubed, then will you hear it click or will it be completely silent when trying to engage the starter?

Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:35 pm

With these problems you can't generally point the finger at one part. It's a combination of a bunch of worn parts that make this happen. The ignition switch, wiring connections, and the starter solenoid are the problem areas.

If you've never replaced the switch, do it! Just ask Ben. I'd bet this solves your problem. Also make sure your solenoid leads are tight and the spade is a tight fit and clean.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:48 pm

Maybe I'll just take the opportunity to just do it all. Id guess a switch is a pretty cheap part, and getting stranded over not replacing a cheap part seems silly. I'll clean all the grounds - I understand there's 2 of them. And clean and lube the solenoid and replace the ignition switch. I assume all these are pretty straight forward fixes :)

Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:03 pm

The first thing to do would be to reach up to the starter solenoid and pull off and reseat the crimp connector to the solenoid a few times - these often can have an open connection due to 'weather', so for 2 minutes of time, it is a cheap first step. Spray both the male and female connectors with tuner cleaner or carb or brake cleaner while apart.

Second step - solenoid cleane and lube.

Good luck

Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:07 pm

presslab wrote: With these problems you can't generally point the finger at one part. It's a combination of a bunch of worn parts that make this happen. The ignition switch, wiring connections, and the starter solenoid are the problem areas.

If you've never replaced the switch, do it! Just ask Ben. I'd bet this solves your problem. Also make sure your solenoid leads are tight and the spade is a tight fit and clean.

While the switch may be good preventive maint, the symptoms and the resulting alleviation of those symptoms wouldn't lead me to think that the switch is bad....

Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:16 pm

tozovr wrote: While the switch may be good preventive maint, the symptoms and the resulting alleviation of those symptoms wouldn't lead me to think that the switch is bad....

It's a fairly common problem, actually. My van had that problem, and I added a relay to actuate the starter. This worked fine, but then my ignition switch completely failed. I replaced the ignition switch and removed the relay, and it's been fine for 5 years.

My Subaru has the same problem. I just have a relay right now because the ignition switch is a pain to replace.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:16 pm

Thanks guys for all the suggestions. I think cleaning, making sure the connections are tight, etc... is a good first step. To add info I just heard back from the prior owner. The starter is 2 years old IMI unit from GoWesty, and the switch was already replaced in a similar time frame. Of course 'new' parts still fail, but it seems likely that a bad connection is the problem... At the very least it seems like the logical first step to look.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Presslab is exactly right, the temptation of wanting to boil this common problem down to a single factor is a recipe for intense and ongoing frustration.

I've written about this a few times here, you have to look at the whole starting electrical circuit and equipment as links in a big long heavily-loaded chain. If you think you've cooked it down to one single factor, you fix that, but surprise, that just foists the load off onto the next weakest element. And so on and so on until your girlfriend dumps your ass for stranding her one more time.

Sure, solenoids can and do get sticky, but a sticky one will pull in if the voltage it is receiving is high enough and doesn't drop when the current starts to flow. But oops, there's some corrosion inside the insulation right near the solenoid trigger connector, so that part of the wire heats up, the voltage drops, the field strength fizzles, and the solenoid goes "click".

Or even though VW fixed their longstanding mistake of expecting a small trigger wire to carry the high solenoid pull-in current some 12 feet by finally upping the wire size to about an 8 or 10ga., that current still has to pass thru a teeny little contact inside the ignition switch, that is barely as large in area as the sectional area of a 10ga. wire. So that little contact is a weak link. You will see full battery voltage at the solenoid trigger wire if you test it in isolation, but pull 30 amps thru that switch contact and the voltage drops like a rock, and "click". Same goes for the manky connector on the back of the fuse panel that brings that current there from the battery in the first place, those are often nicely toasted. How much current do you think that degraded connection can handle?

Or the corrosion inside the solenoid body and on the surface of the plunger is causing some pretty good drag, but jumper the current direct from the main starter post to the solenoid trigger and it pulls in like a champ! Or rap on the side of the solenoid and that knocks loose the plunger just enough that the feeble voltage it's receiving form the starter trigger circuit is now just high enough so it pulls in and off you go. Until the next time.

Maybe you even hear the solenoid pull in, but it can't apply enough force against the starter motor contactor to overcome all the burning and corrosion there, so the starter motor won't spin up, or does but as soon as it encounters the resistance of the engine it fails.

So you see where this is going, every element of this system needs to be in reasonably good shape. It is truly a chain so it's only as good as its weakest link. Might as well try to strengthen as many of them as you can so your starter troubles don't dog you into next year.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:25 pm

Great explanation tencent.

I had an IMI starter, it couldn't turn over my Subaru engine. A rebuilt Bosch unit is fine. I think they have quality issues.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409642

Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:23 pm

Interesting... I have a subie 2.2 as well and it's always started strong, except for these 2 times. It sounds like this starter is suspect though. I wonder what GW would say if I called them.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:16 pm

Stuck or worn out brushes will cause the same syndromes. The pull in circuit of the solenoid grounds through the starter brushes, so if the brushes aren't making contact the solenoid will not work. This is real common in salt areas or on starters that have been sitting for a long time.

Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:37 am

Had a '84 auto for acouple yrs and it did the same thing. Had narrowed it down to solenoid but kept giving it a tap sometimes. On my way to a show i stopped for breakfast and ended up removing starter, cleaning gunk(grease) from plunger and inside of sol,also lubed bendix,reinstalled and was on my way,took about 1 1/2 hrs. Easy to remove starter with wheel off.

Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:26 am

I had the same problem this past month. If the van sat for a couple days it wouldn't start. Nothing. Not a click. Zip. Tap the solenoid and it went.

I had the starter off last year and bench tested. The idea was to take it apart and clean it and lube it. That may be an option in other areas...but here in the rust belt it isn't.

I put a new starter on 2 weeks ago. It turns over like never before. Kind of funny actually. No question, mine was the starter.

Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:28 am

presslab wrote: tozovr wrote: While the switch may be good preventive maint, the symptoms and the resulting alleviation of those symptoms wouldn't lead me to think that the switch is bad....

It's a fairly common problem, actually. My van had that problem, and I added a relay to actuate the starter. This worked fine, but then my ignition switch completely failed. I replaced the ignition switch and removed the relay, and it's been fine for 5 years.

My Subaru has the same problem. I just have a relay right now because the ignition switch is a pain to replace.

And that sir, is why I shouldn't think :)

Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:14 am

Thanks everyone for the input. I was thinking about this last night, and of course Internet-diagnosis is hardy definitive, I think it's probably the solenoid. I've had the van as an almost daily driver for the past 9 months, and it's only done this twice. I would think if I was losing voltage between the ignition and starter due to a worn wire, dirty connections, etc.. I'd experience this problem more often. I'm going to focus on the solenoid (clean and grease) and just double check the connections this weekened. Can the solenoid be taken off from the engine compartment, or do I need to take off the wheel as was mentioned a couple posts above?