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Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:03 pm

To those that have used both the tank and the body por 15 .. do you think it's the same stuff .. just the por 15 , nothing else.

Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:09 pm

I doubt it, gas tank sealers are pretty darn specific. Though it is hard to say and a bit interesting of a thought, as the acryllic based sealers came around in the late 80s/early 90s about the same time when POR made big strides, as did similar Bill Hirsch products in their rust preventers. So who the heck knows. Wouldn't use anything in a tank except something saying it is for a tank though, cause 20 years on even those fail (happened a lot when the ethanol content got raised in the 90s.) And as I've said many times over the years in other VW forums, for the money/time/aggravation, find your local radiator shop that does em for you. And I've done plenty myself, once I realized I could pay about $25 more than the Eastwood/POR/Hirsch kit to get it boiled and done by a pro, I never looked back.

John

Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:35 pm

POR 15 sells a kit for gas tank sealant specifically. You will also need to buy some hydrochloric acid to clean it out first. Ratwell.com has a really good explanation and walk thru for the whole process.

Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:14 am

Another option wuld be the tank sealer kit from KBS....same idea.

http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html

Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:12 am

SO my tank on my 74 camper is past repair (I did have the por 15 kit ready to go though) I looked though the classifieds and sent some emails out to people with tanks for sale. I figured I'd ask here if anyone has one they want to let go for a fee and shipping?! Thanks and I think the Por 15 tank sealer is different from the brush on black glossy stuff but I've heard good things about it you just need to be patient.

Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:47 am

I did a acid bath, then a soda wash/flush, then a water flush. of course I got flash rust and the inside top still had flaky rust, so one more time with acid,, This flash rust is getting me..

I did the filler neck the same way BUT ... as soon as I did the final water flush, I oild the filler neck two days leter no rust.. I did not dry the neck, just started oiling while is was wet with water..

next go around with the tank I will do the same, no drying the tank, just go straight to oil. I will not be using a sealer. why is I don't trust these sealers to not peel off years later and the cost.. I can build a new tank for what all this stuff cost .

In the last two years I find nothing but rusty gas tanks ( VW's) in bugs and now this bus... the tanks look perfect on the outside, this Bus. The tank still looks new.. But from years of sitting with a half tank, The rust..above the fuel line.

Think of all the storys we hear, about a guy buying a VW that has sat for 4 to 5 years, he puts in a new engine and is off down the hyway. Then the engine starts running crappy, like it's not getting fuel ..

Believe this, if your VW has sat ant amount of time, with anything less that a full tank, the tank is rusty inside,, just look at the filler and under the cap, if the cap has that whitish crap on the under side , the tank is rusty .

Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:22 pm

The gas tank sealer and the regular Por-15 are the same. The gas tank sealer is the most like Silver Por-15, but without as much of the silver pigment. I did the tank on my 71 Deluxe and in the end it turned out fine. Pain in the ass though. Buy some muratic acid from Home Depot and use it to clean the tank. I found the Metal Prep from Por-15 to be kindof weak. Some more tips for Por-15, Always, always wear gloves. Or else it will be three weeks or a month before it wears off of your hands. Por-15 for rust repair is awesome. If you are going to be painting over the repair, I found that the clear is the easiest to work with. Get some of their Tie Coat Primer to go on next, after that proceed as usual. I've tried all of the Por-15 colors. Gloss Black and Satin Black I have had good results with. Stay away from the Silver. The Grey works OK. They say you need 2 thin coats but in my experience one thick coat works best. Go down and buy a grip of those cheap foam brushes and use them, but work fast because they will break down. Take a pair of scissors and cut a little bit of the foam off at the tip of the brush and it won't get so scummy. And when it does, toss it and get another one. Good luck on the tank. One shot, one kill.

Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:48 pm

One more thing. This is kindof off topic but maybe it will help someone out there. I rescued my bus after it had been sitting for 6 years in a field. Lots of Cleaning/Priming/ Painting to be done to it. If you are in the same situation, do yourself a favor right now and get your hands on the best spray gun you can get. I have an old Binks, and teach yourself how to use it, its not Rocket Science. Use only Automotive Primers and Paints. I am using mostly urathanes now. The work goes much faster and the results are much better. Auto paints dry faster and harder and look so much better. I can now mix, paint, and clean the gun pretty much as fast and easily as with a spray can. But the painting part is so much faster.

Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:19 pm

After spreading much more POR-15 than I ever want to see again, and doing the full tank resto kit, I'm pretty sure the silver POR and the tank sealer are different. The noxious fumes are different, the viscosity is different too. That tank sealer was some mean stuff, but after going through the marine clean, boiling water rinse, marine clean, boiling water rinse, then metal ready, it seemed to work great. My tank looked "pretty good" on the inside, but the gooey crud that flushed out was amazing.
If I was doing it again, I would put tank sealer in the tank instead of gambling or trying to save a buck. It just too much trouble to remove the tank again if you put the wrong stuff in and it failed.

Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:42 pm

After I did the gas tank treatment inside, and the outside with the regular Por-15, I remembered the filler neck. So I called West Coast Coatings in Sacramento who are the distributors for the West Coast. I asked them. That was their answer. I have, and I suspect that most who have used Por-15, a real Love/Hate relationship with the product. I did all of the engine tin with it and it looks and feels like powder coat, with some drips if you look for them. I did the inside of the tank because I'm pretty sure the coating will last longer than me. And whoever inherits the van should go through some of this to prove he is worthy of the seat. Don't forget the filler neck, and the gas cap. One more think i susspect. The bathtub refinisher they sell at home depot and lowes is same stuff in white and biege...

Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:48 pm

Do not put regular por 15 in your tank.

Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:24 pm

I called a local radiator shop and they said cleaning and sealing fuel tanks started at $250.
I think I'll stick with the POR 15 treatment, or a similar DIY.

Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:30 pm

towd wrote: I did a acid bath, then a soda wash/flush, then a water flush. of course I got flash rust and the inside top still had flaky rust, so one more time with acid,, This flash rust is getting me..

I did the filler neck the same way BUT ... as soon as I did the final water flush, I oild the filler neck two days leter no rust.. I did not dry the neck, just started oiling while is was wet with water..

next go around with the tank I will do the same, no drying the tank, just go straight to oil. I will not be using a sealer. why is I don't trust these sealers to not peel off years later and the cost.. I can build a new tank for what all this stuff cost .

In the last two years I find nothing but rusty gas tanks ( VW's) in bugs and now this bus... the tanks look perfect on the outside, this Bus. The tank still looks new.. But from years of sitting with a half tank, The rust..above the fuel line.

Think of all the storys we hear, about a guy buying a VW that has sat for 4 to 5 years, he puts in a new engine and is off down the hyway. Then the engine starts running crappy, like it's not getting fuel ..

Believe this, if your VW has sat ant amount of time, with anything less that a full tank, the tank is rusty inside,, just look at the filler and under the cap, if the cap has that whitish crap on the under side , the tank is rusty .

The rust flash is REQUIRED. One of the active ingredients in POR-15's primer is phosphoric acid. It converts rust to black iron phospjate...which is permanently nonrusting....as long as it gets sealed on the surface. Its makes the worlds best primer for the POR-sealer....or any other coating for that matter.

The acid is only used for CRUSTY rust...because the phosphoric acid can only penetrate a few thousandths.

The proper way to really derust if you want to paint and coat...is to de-rust will hydrochloric acid mixture. This will then start flash rusting in minutes. We it down...let it sit for a day or so. You want micro=thin perfect film of rust. Coat with any commercial Phosphoric acid mixture like Ospho brand....and then solvent wash and lest dry for a while. Then coat with anything you want. It will never rust again.

Anyone can proffesionally seal their own tank. The problem that about 100% of the failures run into...is improper preparation.
If you did not remove all crusty rust over about .002" thick with acid....you will fail when you prime it with phosphoric acid....and the final coating goes on over porous, flaky rust.
If you do not let surface flash rust get evenly rusted...for the primer to convert to black iron phosphate....you will have patchy areas that fail....because phosphoric acid based primers do nothing to clean metal except give it a temporary bluish stain that comes off and is not a primer.
Do not oil anything to prevent the rust...or nothing sticks to it.
Do not use baking soda to neutralize. It titrates out to solid on the surface...which is a salt....which will not go away...and is hard to get off.... wheras the acid will not. Just keep rinsing the acid. It will dilute. Ray

Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:57 pm

West Coast Coatings. 1-800-827-6715. Ask for Mary. I'm done, gonna teach the dog some new stuff, she listens.

Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:57 pm

hydrochloric is what I used, the plan is to hit it again.. The inside top is still flaky rust..

I'v gather 99% of my informatiom from Big Bike sites. it seems there having a bigger problem with rusty tanks than we are .. hydrochloric acid is the trick.. but This is the only time I've heard to not use baking soda, in fact most will tell you to have that mixed and waiting ,,,

The flash rust, this is a new one also..but then every time you put gas in that ol harley your looking inside the tank. I couldn't disagree more on not using oil. I've used oil 3 day ago, and zero rust,, ya the inside of a tank will be another story, No matter how this turns out it will be an improvment over what was there,,

The downside of using hydrochloric acid, so " they say" is that it never stops eating away the metal, hence baking soda...

anyway, The point I want to get across, after seeing this often written on here ,, That is some say there tank is good, because it's clean on the outside,,

here's the tank and tank compartment in question,, The tanks looks new, the compartment only had a very light dust inside, but from years of sitting the inside of the tank is shit ,, The gas coming out was Brown and the tank smelled like warmed over puck,

Engine bay has been repainted, the compartment is OG, I havn't even wiped out the dust yet ..

this 1st photo is what came out with just using a water hose, before using chains,, it looked like a seal job gone bad. I know that tanl had never been removed in the past, the next day the pile of crap was Flake rust, just as red as can be, but being wet from gas, it was Black.

Before this is over, I'm think of using my webcam to see whats happening inside. this one is like a ball on a string..maybe I can get pic's of the inside,

O ya, this thing had a perfect brass screen in it LOL.. That was a surprise

[img][/img]

any thing you see in this photo, that may look like rust is the horse hair padding they use under the tank

[img][/img]

These are pic's of the tank After acid bath , as you can see it looks very good>>>> outside

[img][/img]

I have found this same thing on old hnda Dirt bike tanks, they will look great, even great inside, but down in the corners, there full of rust, to th epoint of having holes.

now a guy could take an axe chop the sucker apart, sand paper the rust, then fiberglass it back together .. damn .. why didn't VW think of that ..

[img][/img][img][/img]

Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:39 am

We used the KBS system and it worked well. It includes a cleaner, primer, and the gas tank coating (like POR15).

Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:09 am

blue72beetle wrote: I called a local radiator shop and they said cleaning and sealing fuel tanks started at $250.
I think I'll stick with the POR 15 treatment, or a similar DIY.

Shop around.

Last one I had done (admittedly about 4 years ago in WV) was $95, had been $75 at the same place until about 2003, the EPA was getting to them a little perhaps. I don't doubt there has been some escalation in price but I don't imagine it would be over $150. Which to me is money, very, very well spent. And like I said, I've sealed probably 10+ myself from the late 80s until the mid 90s when I figured out what I could be spending. I'd even hazard to say $250 is money well spent, but needs to consider at that point finding a nice clean used one. $250 versus a solid 4+ hours of your labor to do it well, plus always the concern for a less than perfect result, particularly if running into an FI system with pumps going what $150 now days, and injectors $45?

As mentioned it is getting tougher though to find one used and useable, a lot of steel tanks are rusting like never before. Ethanol content in gas is the direct reason. Like it always has ethanol sucks up water (yellow can HEET is ethanol) and that stays and rusts your tank. Particularly in an infrequently used vehicle, this is a major problem. It is worse when a tank is partially filled (more airspace in the tank), vented without lock system (older buses or innefective system in a later one), and when the tank is subject to a lot of heat/cool cycles and in a humid environement. You are better to store completely full to the top with some Stabil to keep things less volatile (if your fill system doesn't leak) or completely drained.

Anyway YMMV, I've used PORs, Hirsch's, Eastwoods, in gas tanks, air compressor tanks, lots of things, I've done all the tricks, gravel to de-rust, long acid soaks, etc. I'll pay someone or find a clean tank.

John

Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:31 am

Hydrochloric acid DOES NOT eat metal. That is absolutely incorrect. Its a relativelt weak acid.
In fact, it coverts rapidly during the process of oxidizing either metal or rust. Take a metal plate...put a drop of hydrochloric acid on it and walk away. It may eat a small amount if metal.....but then it will stop because the acid converts to hydrogen and chloride as it operates.

Whoever told you that the acid continues to eat metal...flunked chemistry and does not know what they are talking about. Its also absolute myth...that dried acid...when rewetted with water...reactivates.

Hydrochloric acid is a mixture of hydrigen and chloride in water solution. Once the water is gone through evaporation, you have some chloride which can cause corrosion...and you have excess surcace hydrogen which can cause hydrogen embittlement...which is what causes flash rusting.

In short...only use 100% hydrochloric for very crusty rust. And yes...when you are done with it...it should be neutralized. You can do that fully with a simple spritz of WD-40...which has a PH up around 8-9.

The reasons you need to neutralize when using 100 acid....are mainly because the hydrigen embrittlement can make the surface of hardened metals overly weak...and destroy the hardening.

Use should use muriatic acid (lower solution strength of hydrochloric)...add it 60-40 to water or 70-30. As it stops fizzzing over rust...its spent...and can cause no further damage to the metal...only you and concrete.

Simply rinse with water several times. The acid has a PH of about 1.0 Simple water with a PH of 6-8 (tap water)...will neutralize it just fine.

The light hydrogen embrittlement of the acid....will cause flash rusting. The cool thing about rust...is that you can take any Phosphoric acid product like Ospho (ace hardware...about $15 a gallon)....spray, brush or dip it on.....and it converts rust...to permanent black oxide (iron Phosphate).....which will not rust....and is a superb primer.

Crusty rust is bad....micro-thin flash rust is your friend when you first convert it with phosphoric acid (overnight process)...and then coat it with any epoxy based gas tank sealer. It makes a superb primer...and the sealer will last for ages. Ray

Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:21 am

now, I'm confused,, I know Ray is on the money on most things,

do a google on using muriatic acid for cleaning rust , even read ratwells site.. see what you come up with... every one of these will tell you to flush asap and that the bad side of using muriatic acid is that it never stops. on my sidewalk it didn't do shit for cleaning the concrete. LOL

Now on the flip. I did a test using the acid straight out of the bottle ( 37%) it took rust off before your very eyes...it was magic . I left that piece outside over the last few days, unwashed. by day two ,, no rust

yesterday we had a bit of rain and it now has a slight rust,, back to the tank, I flushed with water and with in sec's I had rust .. The parts I oiled still have no rust ..

The only reason I saved this Bus was because it really didn't have much rust ,, Drivers floor and the battery area, that was it .. Then there was or is the tweaker wiring job.
The tank is on hold, til I get the wiring done..

Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:17 pm

What these people do not understand...those who claim that muriatic acid eats metal....is that if you do not rinse it properly....its not the acid that will keep eating the metal....it is the normal corrosion and rust created from the by-products of broken down acid. Just rinse it well. I tell people to use the garden hose. Even inside the car.
I also tell people to do this in warm weather expecially if you are working on confined areas like heater channels. When you are done with those areas..just stick the hose and them and let it run.
If it floods the floorboards...let it drain...and do it again. It may take numerous rinses.

Those who claim that acid will eat metal....are either using way too strong of an acid...or they are not rinsing it.

Understand this....do you know where I learned the acid trick? Most large engine shops keep a 55 gallon drum of muriatic acid out back. They dump entire cast iron cylinder heads into it...and leave them for HOURS...with no damage. They then put them into the rinse washer. Thats all it takes.
You can also neutralize if you are in a hurry or do not have a good water sprayer...with WD-40. The PH and solution strength of light oils like that will instantly neutralize the acid. Then you will have to strip it with soap again to get the oil off.

Let me try to explain this. Those who claim that the acid is eating metal do not understand chemistry well enough. For the record...hydrchloric and muriatic....will vaporize aluminum. They will eat copper.
The only part they eat from steel..is oxidized material. But,,,if you have a peculiar steel that is alloyed with something like copper or magnesium or something funky....it may etch the surface. Just be careful

Here is the gist of it: You can neutralize muriatic accid 100% with water....but you cannot do it with a single rinse. Why?
Because the solution strength of the acid is much higher than water.

What does this mean?

You can take a pint of water......whose PH is 7.0 and add a 1/4 teaspoon of acid...and the PH of the water will drop to 1. Add one more 1/4 teaspon and the PH drops to 0. Thats as low as the scale goes...0.
You could add 3 more 1/4 teaspoons of acid and the PH would still read 0.....but the solution strength would now be 3 times more. So to bring the ph even back up to 1...you would need to add.....4 pints of water.... :shock:

This is just an example. Theacid is actually stronger than that. It takes about 1.5 gallons to bring 20,000 gallons of water down 1-2 points in PH.

So...in rinsing the acid off...you simply need to (a) get the gross amount of acid off...spray it off with a stream of water.....then keep flushing it.

With a gas tank...first drain every drop of acid from it....then fill it up with water to cover every surface...swish it around....drain it.... repeat about 4 times. For about $2 you can buy PH tst strips at any hardware or pool store. At about the third refilling with water...dip a test strip into the filler neck or the sending unit hole. If it reads 3 PH or below..rinse it again.

Its not the acid itself that will eat metal if its improperlhy rinsed. Its the by-products it breaks down into. The PH of those by-products will be very high...they will be a base ..which causes corrosion....

By the way...baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. Its mostly sodium...salt. We all know what salt does to steel. Its solution strength is much higher than the acid. When improperly rinsed...it dries to salt crystals on the metal. Ray