TheSamba.com :: View topic - What size engine should I build?-My take on it

Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:04 pm

My wife and I were out at dinner and talking about the bug again. We were discussing the engine that I am currently putting together for it and we got on the subject of engine size.

When I first started this project I was new to the world of VW and it has been a huge learning curve. But one thing that has come from this is I now have a definite idea of what size engine to build. One of three-1600, 1915 or 2276

Before everyone's head explodes with reasons why it should not be limited to these three let me explain.

I choose these three engine sizes given a preset of conditions.
1) You are building the engine from scratch. You will be purchasing every part to go into the engine. If you already have some parts that you want to use to save money or whatever then you will build your engine around those parts.
2) You are not building a racing engine. If you are someone who wants to push an engine to its limits on the 1/8 mile this topic is moot since you should know waaaaay more about vw engines at this point.
3) You are not a machinist and do not plan to do any machine work on the engine case and parts yourself. This is for the guy who is going to pay to have all machine work done (and if you are going to learn to DIY the machine work find a lot of donor parts to practice on cases and heads get real expensive real fast)

Now the first engine size is the 1600 (85.5x69). This is the stock engine size, the germans spent a lot of time and big $ in its design. The parts are the most economical to purchase and if properly assembled, carbed and tuned it will last you forever. There is absolutely no machine work you will have to do on it and this saves you big dollars. You want something that is going to get you back and forth to work or to the shows you can't go wrong with this.

The second size I select is the 1915 (94x69). If you want an engine that is going to have a little extra get up and go for freeway driving this is what you want. We are at the first stage of machine work you are going to have to do. The case will have to be bored to accept bigger piston/cylinder combination. I think there is no reason to do a 90.5 or 92mm bore because it will cost the same to do a 94. The machinist is going to charge you the same for the work regardless of the size of the pistons and cylinders you use (heads will have to be bored or purchased to size but I assume you will be building the engine from scratch so your cylinders will cost the same regardless of bore size). When you buy your piston/cylinder combo there is no difference in price between the 90.5, 92 or 94mm size. I read post after post about 1776 torquer this and 1815 that but the fact is a 1915 will be assembled with all the same parts and produce the most torque/hp that you can get out of a 69mm crank. Plus once you have increased the bore you might eventually think about stroking the engine and the bigger strokes will perform better with a bigger bore.

The third size is a 2276 (94x82). Once you go to 74mm or larger crank you are going to have to pay a machine shop to clearance your case. Again you are going to be charged the same if you have it clearanced for a 74, 78 or 82 (as stated above no point in a bore smaller than 94). Anything larger than 82mm stroke is going to be a higher cost to you because there is a lot more involved in the clearancing of strokes that large (you are now getting into the realm of welding extra material on the outside of the case and clearancing the cam). The cost of purchasing a crankshaft from 74-82mm is negligible as well as the fact that 82mm stroke is designed to work well with the 94mm bore. Plus when you get to stroker engines you are someone who wants to go fast and 2276 is going to give you the biggest bang for your buck.

So from a cost/benefit basis I believe that if you are building an engine from scratch, you have to pay for your machine work and you are not planing on owning the 1/8 mile drag strip- the only three engines you should build are the 1600, 1915, and 2276.

I am at best a novice VW enthusiast, I probably will get hammered on this post from all the experts (and probably rightly so :) ) but maybe someone will find this info useful.

Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:22 pm

This is a very interesting take on the subject but I definitely think you are over simplifying it. There are lots of reasons why there are more than just those three engines sizes. When selecting the engine that's right for you cost should not be the only factor.

Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:34 pm

Build the biggest motor you can afford, granted bigger isn't always best but a larger motor will make it's power at a somewhat lower RPM vs a smaller motor with the same cam, heads and induction. Less revs means less stress and longer life.

I would chose an engine builder and buy a kit from him. This way you know all the parts will work together and make a good combo. Pick a proven combo and duplicate it. For example, Glenn Ring's 2180 built by Art Thraen at ACE or Gerico's 2276 built with help and engine kit by Darren Gurola at DRD. Check out Glenn's site for a detailed list of parts:

http://www.glenn-ring.com/Beetle.html

http://www.glenn-ring.com/engine/

Also check out Gerico's post with dyno graph of his 2276. A 'mild' motor that has almost 160HP and 145 lb/ft torque:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265227&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:05 pm

Here's how I think of it:
If you had nothing but OE vw parts from the 70's, and a Mahle p&c, you would want to go 2007cc. Any OE vw case and crank and heads can be made into a 2007cc no problem.
If you try to go 2276 you will run into problems- like not enough head CCs, stock rods hit everything, case cut into case savers, heads so thin you can see cylinders through the fins, oil hole problems with stock cross-drilled crank.

BUT.................the year is now 2010, and we have 044 heads, aftermarket rods, 2" rod journal cranks, new cases, aluminum cases, and tricks to get around all these problems. If you use the right parts it's no problem.

So the only reason to build a 2007cc is if you want to use actual vw parts.

Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:02 am

Your id says to go with the 2276. Your super ego says to go with the 1600 and your ego chooses the 1915. It just depends in which stage you're in when you buy the damn thing. I am with Modok, I say 2007, the buddhist's choice. A nice balance between both ends of the spectrum.

I am doing a 1915 and the 2007 really isn't that much more expensive. Just go mild with your cam heads and carb and you will enjoy the hell out of it. Crave more power? Sell the heads cam and exhaust and upgrade.

Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:48 am

1600 - low maintenance (less headaches), no fun, cheap parts, park on the street in the rain nobody cares, the choice if this is your only car.

1915 - no comment, go small or go big don't settle the gray area.

2276 - high maintenance (valve adjustments, oil changes, monitor head temp/oil pressure/air cooling, keep carbs sync'd 48's of course), keep everything locked-up from the thieves, higher cost (don't forget insurance). Most fun/exciting engine for you and your wife to cruise around town. If built right there will be no regrets.

Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:30 am

Just my opinion the cheapest best engine would be a 1776 with stock or small CB cheater cam, carb and heads with a full flow oil filter.

From there you build what you want/need/can afford. There are Samba members with 90x94 engines with a W100 and dual 40 IDFs that are just as reliable as a stock 1600, fear no hill or highway and in most cases last longer than the average 1600.

Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:39 am

Like the other 20,000 threads on this same subject its all opinions here with little or no actual data to show any facts..... Just saying there are so many variables and different ways someone could treat (or mistreat ) an engine it you have to take all these opinions with a grain of salt or talk to someone who keeps good records/data on the subject. Even then thier are exceptions to every rule.... But this is just (yep you guessed it) my opinion... :wink:

Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:39 am

Once you go BIG & BAD, you can never go back. :lol:

YOu spoke to the wife about "size"? What she say? ..the bigger the better. Just kidding.

All kidding aside, go w/ what you think is good for your purpose. But I can only say that the strokers are most definitely more fun to drive. Just don't go crazy w/ it. Just enough is really good.

Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:46 am

Well said nsracing. The adrenaline you get from going big and bad is more fun than anyone can expect especially all the heads that turn and people say "what the heck was that". In the end, ain't it all about fun?

Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:47 am

I tend to agree with the OP.

a 84mm with chevy rod journals will be as easy as a 82mm with VW journals for the short block build, but then you have problems with the crank throw hitting the piston skirts if you use a shorter rod, and if you use a longer rod you end up with a really wide engine. Or you could step up to a wisco piston, but that's more $$$.

The nice thing about the 82mm is your deck height will be close to correct if you use a 5.394 length rod. The 84mm will come out close with a 5.325 rod, but you have to use the above wisco pistons.

The 78mm, 76mm crank end up having weird deck heights. After spending a $100 bucks or so with a machine shop to get your cylinders to work with a 78mm Crank, the 82mm can actually be cheaper.

Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:46 am

Ive read all the technicalities on this forum in the past and if you listen you'll wind up with more questions than answers and a massive headache that will last for days.
Here's what ive done with better success.
1) Be realistic about the amount of money you can spend on said engine and your driving habits.
2) Deal with an EXPERIENCED, REPUTABLE shop only :!: Ive dealt with west coast shops Striclty VW , CPR and most recently Performance Workshop all with great results. I have noticed that every builder has his own tried and tested go-to combination they can build with their eyes closed. Strictly-VW built me a 2332 beast that is still going strong after 10 years, CPR built my newbie buddy a 1914 that is pretty stout and Greg Tims just built me a 2007 that is a blast to drive. Listen to them and don't try and inject any technical mumbo jumbo you read on here.
None of these engines have a timeslip to boast. But what they do have in common is new cases, quality internals, good heads, 8-1cr and a tranny to match.
If you shop around You'll notice that the experienced, reputable shops prices' are all competitive. If its alot cheaper dont touch it, if its alot more expensive its probably overkill.
If money is not an issue go big and have fun!!! :D

Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:47 pm

My 2 favorite engines for a daily driven street car that will be able to get 100,000 miles are the 1776 and the 2007

Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:07 pm

x2 on the 2007cc 78x90.5

Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:41 pm

1776 or 1915 with turbo, carb or EFI that is the question. I want to build a 1915 turbo with a draw through 500 cfm Holley 2 barrel, but I also have a brand new SDS EM-4 system sitting on the shelf that was going to go on my Datsun 510 that I sold, so what to do with it?

Earthquake

Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:58 pm

ns racing
That's right it's not the length of the stroke or the width of the bore that impresses the ladies, its how you use it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: