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Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:42 am

I want to build a 1600 motor for my beetle ,I would like 70 bhp at the flywheel( this gives the same power to weight as my daily).
what would be the best spec to achieve this?

i was also wondering what's the ultimate spec for a 1600? anyone built a money no object 1600' if so what figures does it make?

Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:19 am

I've read somewhere here on the forums, someone making around 150hp from a 1600. You'll need forged everything, balanced and blueprinted. It's going to be making those numbers in the 8000+ rpm range, with high compression(12:1)
In other words, it's going to have a short life span. It would be the kind of motor someone would be forced to build because of strict rules in a given class of racing. Not something I would pursue for the street.

-Keith

Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:42 pm

70hp at the flywheel is doable in a 1600cc engine. the best bang if you want more power in that cc size, is turbo.

Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:51 pm

in order achieve more horsepower from a 1600 you will need to look at improving the flow of heads, looking into larger valve size, better exhaust, probably running dual carbs.

Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:58 pm

you can make 70hp with exhaust and dual carbs....
I mean, were starting with 60...

Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:09 pm

It is possible to get the 150HP but only under very specific conditions and with a lot of money invested. It wouldnt be very streetable and it wouldnt fit in a car with a enclosed engine compartment.
Bigger displacement is a lot eaisier

Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:36 pm

fastinradford wrote: you can make 70hp with exhaust and dual carbs....
I mean, were starting with 60...

I depends on if we are talking actual horsepower as measured on a dyno in the real world or if we are talking about "corrected" horsepower. In real life a stock 1600 DP makes about 50hp. On the same scale the 1200 that we call a 36hp makes about 30 hp.

70 real world horsepower is doable with nice cylinder heads, mild cam, good 1 3/8 exhaust and a set of 40 IDF Webers or 36 dells.

Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:57 pm

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...p;start=20

here's a thread of a mostly stock 1600 turbo making somewhere around 140hp to the wheels (160 or so at the flywheel). it is streetable, dependable, and with a little work, could fit under a decklid.

as for your goal of 70hp, i would not waste time and money on new heads for a 1600. a good rebuild of the bottom end, a nice cam, engle 100 or even 110, a set of dual carbs like kads or 40 webers or even better 36 dells, and a good 1 3/8 header and quiet pack. should get you there.

if ya want, build the motor and send it to southern california to be dyno'd. it'll make 15 more hp down there!!! :lol:

Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:39 am

Thanks for all the info guys you've given me somewhere to start from , where did I leave that parts catologue :D

Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:58 am

Get your heads worked on. Nice port and valve job. Maybe some 88 pistons. Re-jet the 34 pict carb and a 1 3/8 header. Mount some stock vanagon rockers which are stock 1.25's.

Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:36 pm

Here is my 72 HP 1.6 liter.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=117967&start=0

Ported heads would still make more!!

Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:40 pm

derluftwagen wrote: Here is my 72 HP 1.6 liter.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=117967&start=0

Ported heads would still make more!!

Err, that's a 1.7 liter. 1.699L would be called 1.7. Using your thought process a 1600 which is actually a 1584cc is 1.584L and you would call it a 1.5L? Good thread, but it's not a 1.6L.

Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:19 pm

read alittle further down the post and see why his thread is realavant.

Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:11 pm

Ok guys you know were I am going to go!!

Just pop in any one of the stock T-4 engine and this is what they put out in HP and Torque

1700 from 68 to 80 hp 82 of torque

1800 from 76 to 85 hp 92 of torque

2000 from 95 to 100 hp 101 of of torque

The torque is what makes it differnt then a T-1, more driveable though out the range.

Any can be made a 2.0 or larger but that is what you start with if you can find one.
Add a cam, duel carbs, nice igniton, extractor and you can be pumping out 125 hp and the engine will hardly be breathing with 4 people going up a mountain.

Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:39 pm

my 71 bus with stock irs trans, 1600:

-34 ict webers,
-scat c-25 cam, 1.1 rockers solid on shafts
-mallory dizzy
-1.5 header- fat boy muffler
-balanced rotating assembly w/stock flywheel and equalizer pulley
-stock heads ported inside and in combustion area w/ dual springs, chromoly pushrods, lube a lobe lifters and oil breather setup.

im not sure of the torque or hp. once it gets up to about 4500 rpms or 75mph it feels pretty strong for a mostly stock motor. 1776 has it beat for giddy up though.

Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:05 am

Matthew wrote: Err, that's a 1.7 liter. 1.699L would be called 1.7. Good thread, but it's not a 1.6L.

I dont think so. MANY people who are stuck with class restrictions in displacement use the 85.5x74 to stay in the 1.6 liter class. If its good enough to be classified as a 1.6 for a technical race field I will still call it a 1.6L.

Matthew wrote: Using your thought process a 1600 which is actually a 1584cc is 1.584L and you would call it a 1.5L?

I would if I were registering for a racing class! I guess VW just rounded up the numbers for marketing just like the HP numbers.

I have been thinking about the type IV for some time now. Kind of like using a truck engine, small block vs. big block. Big block has way more torque so doesnt need to rev so high to produce the same hp. Higher revving wears out your engine faster. The only thing holding me back is the price. Even if you score a cheap rebuildable core, the add on parts are what kills you. Upright conversion, headers etc.

Heads are expensive as hell too, ($500 each). Given, 150 reliable HP that lasts 150K sounds nice but at $5-10K its just not affordable for me.

Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:47 am

I see you understand the T-4 vs. T-1 thinking where the T-4 is like a Big Block Chevy.. Great.

As for the price of doing a T-4 not really expensive. First of all you are shooting low, all you are asking for is 70 hp at the rear wheels. Type IVs as you can see the stock engines I listed covers that.

So what are we talking about is , getting a running T-4 and just cleaning it up, like rings and valve job. Bottom end rarely go especially if it was from a 914.

My manual explains how to do the conversion with T-1 and T-4 sheet metal and then you have to make or buy the following, Gen stand and Crank Pulley. So if you have some parts laying around and you are handy you can do the conversion for NOTHING or if you have to buy some stuff $250 max.

As for exhaust you can get one for around $100.

Keep in mind you have to spend some money on the T-1 70 hp build.

The big difference is if you do get the T-4 all the cases are the same and you can upgrade to like a said 125 hp with very little expense comparted to building a T-1 to that size. Especially seeing the 125 hp T-4 is as stock as a T-1 1600. More money 160 hp!!! But getting your 70 hp is the bottom of the spectrum of T-4’s I have a feeling the T-1 70hp and the T-4 ( any where from 70 to 100 hp ) stock would be about the same. It just depends on what T-4 you find.
This is my site www.nextgen-usa.com

Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:16 pm

In my last two sentences I meant to say building a T-1 to 70 hp at the rear wheels. I would think would cost just as much as just rebuilding a T-4 and you could wind up with a 100 hp reliable long lasting engine.

Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:11 pm

nextgen wrote: In my last two sentences I meant to say building a T-1 to 70 hp at the rear wheels. I would think would cost just as much as just rebuilding a T-4 and you could wind up with a 100 hp reliable long lasting engine.
yes, but he already has a t1, he would have to purchase a t4

Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:06 am

Fastinradford, Good Point, if he has to buy a T-4.

But, as you have seen in this NG people still have no idea what a Type IV conversions is. I am in the center of the T-4 conversion thing and hear all stories, from a guy that has a rotting 914 in his yard for years and just wants it removed, or in other cases guys will pay a few hundred bucks.

My whole point was to give him the options. Sure if he has the T-1 engine and has to buy a T-4 engine he has to do the math.

He can now compare HP, Torque, Future performance upgrades and a big factor is, when he puts money into an engine how much life does he expect from hard earned money.