TheSamba.com :: View topic - Anyone used Peel & Seal for interior insulation

Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:40 pm

New a guy that used this in a car he restored in the floor board before he put the carpet down and he swears by it. He said it is good for insulation and for sound proof. Wanted to know if anyone has used it for is familiar with this product? Its made by MFM.

Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:38 am

Chris of classicvwbugs.com made a video about this on Youtube.

Here it is

He explains everything there. Apparently the "peel and stick" brand stuff has an odor, but this "quick roof" he uses is odorless. That would be a pretty big thing when insulating a car.

I know its not a bus, but yaknow its pretty much the same thing.[/youtube]

Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:41 am

Here's a bunch of info I've been compiling... some are quotes of others, some are my random thoughts as I was grabbing info - apologies for not editing all those out. I'm not endorsing or associated with any vendors mentioned.

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Sound Proofing and Insulation http://www.sciplus.com/index.cfm

What I have:

Reflectix: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=13353-56291-ST16025&lpage=none

Its R4 and R8 if you double it

* butyl based product while the latter two are asphalt based (asphalt may be smelly, often used in peel & stick roofing products, could be bad for lungs- not used INSIDE homes)?

* Butyl rubber sheeting is not the same as a constraint layer viscoelastic damper

* open-cell latex foams are bad and can absorb water- closed cell OK. the same properties that allow you to wash latex foam off your hands with water also mean that the cured foam can absorb water

*You need to be able to keep the drain holes open at the bottom of the body panels.

*R-value is a measure of thermal resistance- the bigger the number, the better the insulation's effectiveness

Just a couple of BASIC* things to remember:
1. If you want to reduce noise as well as thermally insulate your vehicle, you need to bond the insulation to the metal for maximum effectiveness. This is why EVERY acoustic insulator is adhered to the body panel in one way or another.

2. Any additional insulation (thermal and/or acoustic) beyond the stock application will help. "Crumpling up newspaper and stuffing it in the empty spaces will thermally insulate the vehicle better than nothing at all. I am dead serious. This is actually a survival technique; you crumple up paper and stuff it in your clothing. The air pockets created are what make the insulation Partially dried maple leaves do the same thing (it was a Boy Scout thing, that's how I know)."

3. Be very, very careful about spray-in foams. If they expand and have no where to expand to then they can possibly cause damage. They have a great potential to be messy. Some can contain components that are acidic to metal...not good. They have a VERY good potential to trap moisture. "Not recommended. The damage it can cause isn't measured in days or months but in years down the road"...

4. Foam padding has pretty much the negative of holding moisture as well. Over time it can rot and disintegrate and thus become ineffective. Neoprene isn't bad because of its dense, closed-cell nature.

5. Use quality materials so they'll last! This is something you want to do once. Of course, if you go the crumpled up newspaper route then it's just costing you time...

“Glue”: http://www.peel-n-stick.com/p-26-affix-it-strips.aspx

Ebay Item number: 140335907905 ; 330338935980; 330344531005
Look for FatMat here too

JC Whitney
Insulating Sheeting, 32" x 54" Sheet; # ZX125514A
http://www.jcwhitney.com/HEAT-SOUND-INSULATION/GP_2010475_N_111+10201+600002669_10101.jcw

Lizard Skin
http://www.lizardskin.com/
(ceramic type)

RAAMAudio
http://www.raamaudio.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27&vmcchk=1&Itemid=60

Second Skin
http://www.secondskinaudio.com/
Damplifier Pro

FatMat
MegaMat product
http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/megamat/100.html

Line-X product?

Other links:
http://www.type2.com/library/heat/intrir1.html

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277038&start=80

“I happened across helpful home depot employee who fixes old cars on a budget. He said the asphalt stuff is messy/ gooey- and steered me to "Protecto Wrap butyl hybrid window and door sealing tape". I haven't installed it yet, but I like that it has NO odor- and inexpensive too” -
naynay on samba http://savingirene.blogspot.com/

“125 square feet to do roof, walls, and nose. roof is 65 sq. ft. alone, walls are 55 sq. ft. (including front doors), 5 sq. ft. for the nose center. adds 48 pounds of butyl and foil to the bus if you buy RAMM mat- 80 sq.ft. of peel and seal will cover the floor and wheel wells, adding another 25 pounds”

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/conclusion/ looks like Damplifier outperforms Dynamat and its way cheaper to boot! especially desirable for front door cavities as you can reposition it easily, then as time goes by it adheres stronger and stronger. RAMM audio's RAMMmat is a slightly better value in the same non-asphalt category, but lighter per square foot. still, expensive stuff. $218 (shipped) for 125 square feet. Seems to me that Peel & Seal is fine for floor and over the engine, but on walls and ceiling Damplifier or RAMMmat is apparently necessary for long term adhesion. As for insulation, reflectix is great stuff and i thought i read that its R-value is 11 with a 3/4" airspace? i would not use foam in a can. even though its closed cell, it can still trap water in a corner.

https://fa.misumiusa.com/gwos/catalog/catalog_view...T_ID=12824

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/conclusion/

http://www.mcmaster.com/ for butyl rubber sheeting
http://www.rubbersheetroll.com/neoprene-rubber-medium-strength.html

http://www.bquiet.com/

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=115058&highlight=sound+proof (read)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=309327&highlight=sound+proof (second skin thread)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230667&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=218357&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64626&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72783&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2007/19e_24.pdf

http://www.proguardcoatings.com/rubber-liquid-coating-intro.htm

http://www.automotiveinteriors.com/HEAT_SHIELD.htm
1 Roll = 48" x 72" $32.00 per Roll + $ 14.00 S & H

http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cfm/terms/13806

For floor soundproofing?
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet...401+503220

How To Do It: http://www.ajquick.com/cars/tutorials/sound_deadener.php

Interesting MSDS: http://www.mfmbp.com/pdf/msds/MSDS-SA.pdf

?DEMILEC (USA) non-toxic spray foam insulations such as SEALECTION® 500? Probably won't be cheap but it supposedly is able to expand and contract with the surface it is adhering to.

Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:54 am

Andrew and maximan:
I wouldn't use any type of roofing material (designed for exterior use) on the interior of a bus where humans will be inhaling the off gasing or VOCs from the product - especially in a camper and in hot weather. FYI: Just because you can't smell it or you cover it up with cotton batting, doesn't mean that you aren't inhaling it.

Here is my experience with sound and thermal insulation if you're interested: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=373683&highlight=shhhhh

Good luck!

Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:00 pm

"QUICK ROOF" is a butyl rubber tape.
I used it in my 73 westy as a sound mat and it works great.
Very similar to the expensive stereo product called dynamat but a whole lot cheaper. It comes in 6"x25' rolls and cost around 15 bucks. I used 5 rolls to cover the entire floor.
Just about every product out there has some sort of off gassing process. Even completely organic products off gas. I had no noticeable odder what so ever.

Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:25 pm

MCBAIN wrote: "QUICK ROOF" is a butyl rubber tape.

Really :?:

From the quickroof website:What is QUICK ROOF?
CPI starts with a reflective aluminum foil. Under the foil are rugged, waterproof polymer films. Laminated beneath the films is a thick layer of rubberized asphalt. The asphalt compound adheres to most surfaces and seals around most punctures, forming a protective waterproof barrier. Finally, a high-quality release paper is applied to shield the adhesive surface until the QUICK ROOF waterproof repair is installed.

You can click here to check the Quick Roof site for yourself:http://www.cofair.com/roof.aspx

Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:35 pm

I went to my grainger and asked for quick roof...
Other than the size, this is pretty much what they what they sold me.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6JD51?cm_mm...es-_-6JD51

and it specifically stated that it is butyl based.

Until now i figured it was simply a competitor to the brand Quick Roof but your right....true "quick roof' is asphalt.....

Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:40 pm

This has been posted numerous times with various opinions - Peel and Seal and I think Quick Roof are the same. My local Lowes started handling something else and it was thinner and didnt stick as well. Do a search for soundproofing. I use it and I like it. Some folks like to spend extra money for an application specific products and more power to them.

Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:47 pm

Most asphalt-based sound deadeners use some butyl in the rubber, but the key is that they have high amounts of asphalt. There should be no argument about whether asphalt off-gassing is harmful or not... the research is clear that it is. And whether it smells or not is not an indication of off-gassing. There are many varieties and options for sound deadening materials. The safest ones as far as you and your family's health are concerned are the all butyl materials.

Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:20 pm

Well thanks for all the info I'll do my homework and decide what to do.

Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:03 am

Personally, I used it on a previous vehicle. As far as soundproofing, yes, it worked. The main smell dissipated by the fourth day. Never noticeable smell after that and stayed in place even in the hottest days. My concern now...the long term effects of the product inside my vehicle. Don't have it any longer, but won't do it again.

Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:19 am

Butyl is an asphalt based product. Even natural tree rubber has a smell. Ever smell a new car? save your money!

Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:38 pm

GusC2it wrote: Butyl is an asphalt based product.

FYI: Butyl Rubber is not an asphalt based product. It is a synthetic rubber polymer whose true name is polyisobutylene.

Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:10 pm

BUSBOSS wrote: GusC2it wrote: Butyl is an asphalt based product.

FYI: Butyl Rubber is not an asphalt based product. It is a synthetic rubber polymer whose true name is polyisobutylene.

Yes, it is made from, Butane, which comes from the fractionation process of crude oil, the first fractionalization being crude Asphalt. All these isomers come from crude oil. Butyl rubber is better known as Neoprene.

Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:39 pm

patayres wrote: Most asphalt-based sound deadeners use some butyl in the rubber, but the key is that they have high amounts of asphalt. There should be no argument about whether asphalt off-gassing is harmful or not... the research is clear that it is. And whether it smells or not is not an indication of off-gassing. There are many varieties and options for sound deadening materials. The safest ones as far as you and your family's health are concerned are the all butyl materials.

Amen brother!

Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:17 pm

Quote:
Yes, it is made from, Butane, which comes from the fractionation process of crude oil, the first fractionalization being crude Asphalt. All these isomers come from crude oil. Butyl rubber is better known as Neoprene.

You've lost me. I agree with you that asphalt is derived from crude oil. I also agree that butane can be derived from crude oil. Is butyl the same as butane? I thought butane was a gas with a different molecular structure than butyl.

I also don't think that petroleum based necessarily means asphalt based.

What are your thoughts?

Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:58 pm

Sorry, I ment Butene! Its really a mater of of the ratio of compounds in the product, and we can only take the manufacturers word for it. The only point I am making, is that they all come from crude oil, and they all out gas a little. You usually get what you pay for, but not always. 8)
I like your avatar BTW!

This is interesting:
Butene
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Butene, also known as butylene, is an alkene with the formula C4H8. It is a colourless gas that is present in crude oil as a minor constituent in quantities that are too small for viable extraction. It is therefore obtained by catalytic cracking of long chain hydrocarbons left during refining of crude oil. Cracking produces a mixture of products and the butene is extracted from this by fractional distillation.

Butene can be used as the monomer for polybutene but this polymer is more expensive than alternatives with shorter carbon chains such as polypropylene. Polybutene is therefore commonly used as a co-polymer (mixed with another polymer, either during or after reaction), such as in hot-melt adhesives.

[edit] Isomers
Among the molecules which have the chemical formula C4H8 four isomers are alkenes. All four of these hydrocarbons have four carbon atoms and one double bond in their molecules, but have different chemical structures. The IUPAC and common names, respectively, of these chemical compounds are:

IUPAC name common name structure skeletal formula 3D model
but-1-ene α-butylene
cis-but-2-ene cis-β-butylene
trans-but-2-ene trans-β-butylene
2-methylpropene isobutylene

In the chemical structures above, the small blue numbers in the structure images are the numbering of the atoms in the main backbone chain of the molecules. Other organic compounds have the formula C4H8, namely cyclobutane and methylcyclopropane, but are not alkenes and are not discussed here. There are also four-carbon cyclic alkenes such as cyclobutene and methylcyclopropene, but they do not have the formula C4H8 and are not discussed here.

All four of these isomers are gases at room temperature and pressure, but can be liquefied by lowering the temperature or raising the pressure on them, in a manner similar to pressurised butane. These gases are colourless, but do have distinct odours, and are highly flammable. Although not naturally present in petroleum in high percentages, they can be produced from petrochemicals or by catalytic cracking of petroleum. Although they are stable compounds, the carbon-carbon double bonds make them more reactive than similar alkanes, which are more inert compounds in various ways.

Because of the double bonds, these 4-carbon alkenes can act as monomers in the formation of polymers, as well as having other uses as petrochemical intermediates. They are used in the production of synthetic rubber. But-1-ene is a linear or normal alpha-olefin and isobutylene is a branched alpha-olefin. In a rather low percentage, but-1-ene is used as one of the comonomers, along with other alpha-olefins, in the production of high density polyethylene and linear low density polyethylene. Butyl rubber is made by cationic polymerisation of isobutylene with about 2 - 7% isoprene. Isobutylene is also used for the production of methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) and isooctane, both of which improve the combustion of gasoline.

Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:56 pm

Now I remember why I didn't take organic chemistry. :)

Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:24 pm

GusC2it wrote: The only point I am making, is that they all come from crude oil, and they all out gas a little.
I like your avatar BTW!

Okay! BINGO! Now you've got it!.

We are in agreement on all fronts. Of course these products are petroleum based but they are not all asphalt based. And they do not all contain asphalt. That's a big difference - especially when you talk about what is being off-gassed within the interior of your vehicle.

The only true organic sound proofing would be two organic cotton balls stuffed in my ears. :lol:

I love these types of discussions with others in the Samba/VW community and I think it's important to share our experiences.

I like my avatar too!

Quote: Now I remember why I didn't take organic chemistry.

:D

Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:27 pm

I am lost here. I am redoing my interior and am at this step. I have been looking for a sound deadener and an insulator. What one will I choose. I know that I can not afford Dyna Mat. I will have to re read everything.
Thanks