TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:40 am

This is a LONG Post.

the summary is I DO Recommend Navigon on iPhone.

I have been experimenting with using my iPhone as a GPS Navigation tool in the Vanagon, and it is successfully replacing my Garmin Stand Alone GPS.

I have an iPhone 3GS on ATT USA, in California.

I just spent 2 days camping in Big Sur, there was NO telephone reception anywhere along the rugged coast where I was.

Prior to starting the trip I had used the MAPS application on iPhone to Save the Campground destination that I used to direct my route in Navigon.

IMPORTANT! Navigon will NOT look up a campground, or a business name, or anything else by keyword for that matter. There is NO WAY to tell Navigon you want to look up Plaskett, or Gorda, or even San Francisco. But, you can drop a pin on the location on the map, if you know where to look, and navigate to it, and the pin Does label itself with the correct street name or city name..

So, there are 3 ways to get somewhere in Navigon

1. It is in your iPhone address book already
or
2. You can drop a pin on the map, and go to it.
or
3. The location you are interested in is in the Navigon Point Of Interest database, which contains many gas stations, but no campgrounds and few State Beaches for example.

To do #1, it works best to have cell phone or wifi reception, so you can use the iPhone Maps application to find a location you want to save into your contacts list, for example a Campground. The Maps application excells at dropping pins in response to keyword searches such as campground, but not when you are at the campground with no phone reception..

To do #2, you pretty much have to have learned your destination Map by memory, then you can use Navigon to go to a spot on the map that you select by dropping a pin. Amazingly, if you drop the pin on a road, it will tell you the name of it correctly.

Navigating using strategy #3, point of interest lookup, works best for finding gas stations along a route, but not for looking up key words the way the iPhone Maps application does.

Anyway, the Navigon software worked fantastic! Even when I had absolutely no cell phone reception, I was able to navigate without any problems.

Yes there were a couple of times under tree cover in a deep canyon when the GPS did not have an accurate fix on me, and would show me as being off the road for a few moments.. but, in every case, the GPS correctly announced upcoming turns in a predictable, consitently useful way, with enough advance notice to get me through the turn without confusion. Excellent software. Slightly better than my Nuvi 350. I consider Navigon almost on par with my Nuvi 765, which is saying a LOT!

Nuvi 765 is superior in multi point route optimization, which Nuvi 350 does not have, and Navigon Does multi point routes very well, it just wont sort them, you have to do the order yourself..

One aquard interface is that to do a multi point route, you first have to route to each point individually, then cancel that stop, so it gets listed in Recents which is what Navigon uses to look up points that you want to chain together into a route. Navigon Will Save a route, once you have it organized the way you want it. I find this feature Very useful when planning long trips, as I do when travelling from California to New Mexico for example.

Anyway, I do recommend Navigon on iPhone, expecially once Traffic becomes available.

I consider the iPhone Maps application FAR superior to Navigon, or my two Nuvis for that matter, in finding locations I want to go, searching for key words like Gas, Campground, State Beach, etc. Neither Navigon or Nuvi do these tasks well.

I give Navigon top rating for its integration with iPhone Contacts addresses, and also found the iPod interface fully functional. This means I can have music without quitting the Navigon application.

Navigon successfully passed my test of fulfilling 2 primary roles while driving, It would play my iPod music, and it would speak turn directions, including street names. The Navigon voice is pleasant, and the software fades the music out when a voice instruction happens. I like the set up very much. Navigon even has independent volume control for the spoken commands, separate from the volume of the music.. very nice feature.

I was also very impressed with how consistently the Navigon software was able to locate my position, even with just the iPhone GPS. As you may know Tom Tom is coming out with an iPhone cradle that adds a stronger GPS receiver, and some other navigation software developers have commented that the iPhone GPS is not that precise. I found the opposite to be true with Navigon software. The speed of travel Navigon displayed was consistently very accurate.

I also liked that Navigon reports total distance to destination, as well as time of arrival.

One of Navigon's strong points is the abiity to add waypoints on the fly. Navigon is multi point route capable. It does not optimize automatically, you are responsible for choosing the order in which you go to each point, but, I found it very userful in practical terms.

While enroute on a 100 mile leg, I could easily add a waypoint by touching the map at the spot where I wanted to drop a pin, and then navigate to it, or, if I was in a cell phone reception area, I could exit Navigon, and use the iPhone Maps application to locate a point of interest I want to save into my address book, such as a State Beach Campground, then exit Maps, reopen Navigon, and load the waypoint in Navigon using the Contacts list interface.

There is no feature in Navigon to find a gas station along your route by typing in the word Gasoline, but you can do the task because Navigon already has Gas Stations loaded as PointsOfInteres, and it does do, along current route location of POI's

So for gas along route, you dont need to use Maps application, but for Campgrounds, you do.

What Navigon interface is uniquely good at, is showing POI icons on the map, and if you center the icon on screen, you can drop a pin on it easily, and the pin will display the POI name, such as Taco Bell or State Beach.. VERY useful.

Also very useful on Navigon is the button on lower right of display that is the Route Birds Eye View button. I found myself using it often to see my current location relative to my destination. I use the Blue Dot on the Maps application the same way, as a birds I view to see when I am approaching my destination, or a next turn along a route.

Navigon also works in Landscape mode, a very nice feature if you dont wear polaroid glasses when driving. As you may know from trying to use the iPhone in Landscape mode for other apps, like the Camera, the iPhone screen looks Black if you turn it to Landscape while wearing polaroid glasses..

I still prefer Maps Application, it only lacks speech, but speech is important enough to me that I paid for Navigon, and I am happy with the result, expecially when navigating where there is No Cell Phone Reception, such as in unpopulated and remote areas.

Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:54 am

thanks for that.

Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:08 am

The real problem with using the iphone without any external GPS receiver is that the GPS in the phone is totally dependent on cell reception, which is less than stellar with the iPhone to begin with.

There are several companies that are working on GPS receivers to go with the iPhone.

Personally I think full color topo maps, with a touch screen, and a cradle that included a second battery and GPS receiver would be sweet.

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8796

That device used to work with several GPS programs under v2 of the iPhone OS. Since v3 though they no longer work, and those apps disappeared from the app store.

Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:56 am

I don't believe this is true with the 3G and 3G S. They both have GPS chips and the assisted mode basically helps them get a lock much quicker by using stored satellite location data on the cell network.

I took my iphone 3g s on a back country hike to test it with a buddies garmin and was surprised at the results. With no cell phone reception it took much longer to establish my location but at most it was only 25 meters off the garmin's reading.

Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:09 am

> the GPS in the phone is totally dependent on cell reception

true with the iPhone Maps application, which relies on cell reception to draw the map under the GPS blue dot

but

NOT correct with Navigon, that is the point of my posting

Navigon works WITHOUT cell reception, because it loads 1.4 Gigabites of maps onto the iPhone.

The iPhone GPS proved in my test that it IS strong enough, and gets receptions well enough to work, WITHOUT cell reception of ANY kind..

just to be clear :-)

and fwiw, this is only an IN car or on Street navigation tool, its not a hiking GPS

I use it with a ProClip or Brodit holster that docks the phone on my dash, and I have audio output thru the Van stereo, as well as charging power to the iPhone..

here is the one I chose:
http://tinyurl.com/n7nfzy
and it uses the clip for a Vanagon transporter, which ends up clamping to the ashtray.. in a slightly imperfect way.. ask if you want more photos or other details.. Im also using the moveclip accessory, http://tinyurl.com/6udkxb so I can move it to my other vehicle, which happens to have a USB iPod/iPhone compatible stereo

Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:46 pm

Reality is that much of what your review states is true of similar GPS applications on many different phones on many different carriers. I use a Samsung Instinct on the Sprint network, and it's "useable" as a basic GPS, much like the iPhone, and better in some ways. Sprint and Verizon both have much larger 3G coverage areas than AT&T, so that get some advantage from that.

It's out of 3G coverage results that make me glad I have a real GPS, a Garmin Nuvi 265.

Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:46 pm

> It's out of 3G coverage results that make me glad I have a real GPS

I think I have been unclear, you are the second poster to think that my review involves a cell/3G network based application.

Navigon loads maps into the phone so it does NOT need any network connection.

No cell phone service, no 3G coverage at all.

Only GPS signal and the preloaded maps, the same as our Nuvi stand alone GPS.

And the iPhone software costs less than a Nuvi GPS, and less than 10 months of on network navigation services that would not have worked in Big Sur, and it means carrying one less device that needs recharging...

Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:00 am

I also heard of the Navigon application for the iPhone. I actually already own a Navigon 7200T GPS device but nevertheless I am thinking about getting this application for my iPhone. I already heard lots of good things about this application. I am of the opinion that it would be a good investment. I hope that I won't regret buying it.

Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:51 am

> I am thinking about getting this application for my iPhone.

I bought Navigon because they announced a Traffic module, which it turns out is NOT available (yet). I hate vaporware.

I suggest you NOT buy Navigon for iPhone until the Traffic module, AND the windshield mount, become available. (unless you have another way to dock the phone in the car)

However, even without the traffic module, if you need a GPS navigator in your phone, in places with Zero Cell Phone reception, then YES, Navigon definitely will get the job done.

I used my iPhone to navigate Nacimiento-Fergusson road in Big Sur recently. I never missed a turn, even though there was zero cell reception. None of the phone company navigators that cost monthly fees, work in Big Sur, cause there is NO cell reception.

The other thing you need to use an iPhone for navigation is some kind of mount. Both TomTom and Navigon have announced windshield mounts for iPhone. Both are currently NOT available. (Again, I hate vaporware)

And fwiw, Navigon has ZERO customer support, they do not respond to emails sent to their website contact link.

While on the subject of iPhones, I use Pandora radio. There is an application for jailbroken iPhones called Music Controls, that lets Pandora keep playing music, even if you quit to go to Navigon.

One quirk about Pandora, it wont play thru a USB connected stereo, only thru the headphone jack..

If anyone has questions about iPhones, feel free to contact me privately, I can help you unlock and or jailbreak them.

Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:05 am

How well would you say the built in GPS works compared to a stand-alone GPS? Any ideas on signal quality or satellite aquire time?

Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:34 pm

My iPhone as a GPS Navigation tool in the Vanagon, is successfully replacing my Garmin Stand Alone GPS.

Most of the time I use the Maps application in iPhone to locate, navigate to, and view traffic enroute to my destination.

When I want turn by turn voice navigation I use Navigon on my iPhone instead of using my Garmin Stand Alone GPS.

I ran both my Garmin nuvi 350 and my iPhone with Navigon, side by side. There was not a single thing the Garmin Nuvi 350 did better. In fact, Navigon has the ability to build and save multi point routes, the Garmin Nuvi 350 does not.

My Garmin 765 is currently superior to my iPhone with Navigon because the 765 avoids traffic enroute automatically, which Navigon will also do, once they ship their traffic module.

Both the Garmin 765 and the iPhone Navigon app, display freeway offramps with images of the overhead freeway signs, something Nuvi 350 will not do.

The only thing the Garmin 765 does that Navigon on iPhone does not, is the 765 will sort a multi destination route to create the most efficient route automatically. This is sometimes referred to as the "salesmans solution".

For example, if I was a real estate agent, and had to go on caravan to see half a dozen properties, the 765 would know which point is closest to my starting destination, and will choose the second thru 6th stop based on next nearest. Navigon can only list all 6 stops, but it wont sort them, you can reorder the stops, but its not automatic.

Both Navigon and Nuvi take some time to turn on, and in some situations, both will lose signal, but, in my testing, Navigon actually gives better advance warning of a turn than Nuvi.

Sometimes Nuvi tells me to turn when it is already too late. I have not had that happen with Navigon.

Navigon will also play all the music in my iPhone, Nuvi will not.. you can load music to Nuvi, but its an extra device to maintain, carry, charge, and it uses the cigarette lighter socket. iPhone can get power direct from a USB compatible car stereo, leaving the cigarette lighter socket available for other devices, like radar detectors, or laptops, or cell phone chargers..

in conclusion, unless you need the salesmans solution, I recommend Navigon on iPhone as a superior solution to any Garmin that does not do automatic multipoint routing.

ps, my iPhone is jailbroken, ask me how in private email if you want help. This allows me to run Navigon in the background, so if I need to use the phone to make a call, check weather, or whatever else besides navigating, when I exit navigon it keeps running in the background, and I still get voice turn directions even if I dont see the map. And when I touch the Navigon icon on my home screen to start looking at the map again, the application loads instantly.

Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:50 pm

Quote: I suggest you NOT buy Navigon for iPhone until the Traffic module, AND the windshield mount, become available. (unless you have another way to dock the phone in the car)

Try this link:

http://www.buy.com/retail/usersearchresults.asp?qu...isplay=col

or

http://tinyurl.com/yaz8cqp

Stephen

.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:32 am

Vsyevolod, thanks for the dash beanbag mount links.

Great price, but, kinda bulky, and not sure they would stay put on the sloped Vanagon dash.. have you tried one?

fwiw here is a link to the Navigon windshield mount

http://www.gpsreview.net/navigon-announces-iphone-mount/
Note that the Navigon mount does not power the iPhone, though it is simply a matter of attaching a USB cable that gets power from either a cigarette lighter plug, or your stereo. It would be an extra step each time you get in and out of the car.

and the TomTom mount which has a GPS chip and a speaker built in. I dont know if the gps chip works unless you buy the TomTom navigation app:

http://tinyurl.com/ndmg2m
Note that the Tom Tom app provides power to the phone, thru the cigarette lighter socket. In many vans, the cigarette lighter socket does not turn off when you take out the ignition key, so it would require an extra step each time you get in and out of the van, unless you do the key in ignition mod that turns the radio and cigarette lighter off when the key is removed:

insert ignition key and it relays power to the radio
http://www.weidefamily.net/vanagon/HTML/04/09/01.html

application, iPhone speech GPS with Music thru Van cassette stereo
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4100868&highlight=iphone#4100868

Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:06 pm

is there anything better on Android phones ?
I don't have any cell phone yet :lol:

Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:35 am

no, there is no phone that is better than an iPhone, or I would own it <g>

and no, there is no better navigator for android phones than for iPhone either

most of the android phone navigation tools only work when you have cell phone reception, and they cost $10 a month, forever. Navigon costs 90 bucks, but just one time.

disclaimer, Im an iPhone Phanatic, dont just take my word for it, get a second opinion.. or better yet, get an iPhone, then you will know.. and if you dont like it you can return it in 30 days. An iPhone is actually a pocket computer, not just a phone.

iPhones are like Vanagons, for those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not understand, no explanation will be sufficient.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:07 pm

Quote: no, there is no phone that is better than an iPhone, or I would own it <g1>

well, I didn't really want to go there.... :wink:

this is saying it'll be free (however usefull it is)
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/28/google-redefi...n-android/

http://googlemobile.blogspot.com/2009/10/announcing-google-maps-navigation-for.html

maybe if your iphone can get internet you can just get on google maps ?

Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:59 pm

Google has decided to try to sell their own iPhone wanna be

The google navigation application, is awesome, but only works while you have cell phone reception.

quote from your second link:
"Google Maps Navigation was built from the ground up to take advantage of your phone's Internet connection."

The Navigon product loads all the maps into the phone itself, so it does not use an internet connection

this is why I am able to use Navigon in places where the google navigator would not have reception

like I said, if there was a better product, I would buy it.. an android phone running an internet dependent application is not it.. seriously

and fwiw, I love google maps on my iPhone, but it only works while I have internet reception.. which means it cannot compete with a stand alone GPS device like a Garmin Nuvi.. until now.. once the traffic app ships Navigon will be good or better than a Garmin

Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:03 pm

well I'm still on the fence and haven't bought any cell phones yet.
I almost bought the GPS for my PSP though :lol:

Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:10 pm

Im not going to push you off the fence, because owning an iPhone means paying at least 75 dollars a month.. you might prefer to keep that for your beer budget.. if you drink.. I dont <g>

If you have made it this long without a cell phone, Im not the one to talk you into spending 900 dollars a year, every year, to have an iPhone..

btw, I no longer pay for a home phone, so I save that cost by having a cell phone instead.. but it does not make up for it.. cell phones are expensive, to buy and to use, and iPhones are the most expensive.

but an iPhone is not a phone, it is my music player, it is my calendar, it gets my email, it takes photos, I check the weather with it, I watch the stock market, I check the surf report and the tides, I use it to navigate, to find stores, and even to find the cheapest gas.. I also dont plan to buy a stand alone GPS ever again..

I even have docking stations that connect my iPhone to my Van stereo, and my other cars as well..

and what else is unique about iPhone is all my phone numbers, music, photos that are in the phone, are also saved to my computer, so if I lose my phone, I dont lose my phone numbers etc.. There is no other phone on the market that syncronizes its data with your computer calendar, address book, and photo application. unless Im mistaken.. which Im certainly open to being educated further..

Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:12 pm

Jon,

How are the Navigon maps in terms of boonie access? The Nacimiento-Fergusson Road seems like a good start - have you tried it on smaller roads like BLM and FS roads? I'd also be interested to know at what level of road it would work in Death Valley and the Eastern Sierras.

Thanks for the write up. I'm on the fence about getting an iPhone because I'm still waiting to see if Apple is going to release the tablet that they've been rumored to be working on. I'd like to have a single device for travel/computing and communication. There's always hope...

Jeff

PS: I'm the guy in Marin who sent you the clamshell.