TheSamba.com :: View topic - Rocker arms- proper tightening with no torque wrench...?

Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:22 am

Greetings!

I finished my pushrod seals about two weeks back. I fear I've adjusted the rocker arm nuts too tightly, but don't have, can't borrow, and can't afford a new wrench at the moment.

I know this might be a bit hard to quantify with words, but on a scale of how much should I tighten them by hand:

Finger tight?
Tighten lightly with wrench until it stops but not with force?
Tighten until it stops, then a 1/4 - 1/2 - full rotation more?
Tighten until arm muscle starts to bulge?
Tighten until fully snug, then back off 1 / 2 / 3 turns?

Got my feeler gauge, dwell meter, and timing light sitting by the front door, waiting for the first crack of dawn. After she's tuned it'll be time for emissions testing... [-o<

Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:37 am

What year motor and do you know if the motor is original or rebuilt original. We need to know if the lifters are solid or hydraulic.

Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:41 am

Ahhh, sorry- hydro lifters in a 1979 CA FI bus

Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:04 am

Well if you want the old school method. Which is very messy from the oil splash but you start the motor with all the rockers tightened until the pushrod is just touching on the top of it's compression stroke. This allows the hydraulic lifters to fill with oil when the motor starts. Then with the motor running, tighten each nut until the tap noise goes away and then a half turn after that.

Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:43 am

1975 Kombi wrote: Well if you want the old school method. Which is very messy from the oil splash but you start the motor with all the rockers tightened until the pushrod is just touching on the top of it's compression stroke. This allows the hydraulic lifters to fill with oil when the motor starts. Then with the motor running, tighten each nut until the tap noise goes away and then a half turn after that.

He's not talking about adjusting the valves, he's talking about the actual nuts holding the rocker arms to the head.

Why can't you borrow a torque wrench? I wouldn't be guessing critical torque measurements on my motor and hoping I'm right. Any FLAPS usually will rent tools, or go to a Harbor Freight and buy a cheap beam torque wrench.

Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:20 am

you cant really afford to not do this right.

if you leave them too loose they will come off soon, and if too tight, you wil distress and stretch the stud. there is some latitude near the torque spec. for that stud where neither will happen, and you need to be within it.

fortunately, torque is expressed in such a way that you can properly torque without the torque wrench. 10 foot/pounds is the torque spec. for that stud which means: 10 pounds weight at the end of a foot long wrench.

so measure your wrench and convert to decimal parts of a foot. for instance: a 9 inch wrench would be 9/12 of a foot= .75 feet. to get 10 foot pounds on a .75 foot wrench, you figure by setting up the equation, .75x=10. algebraically manipulate the equation by dividing both sides by .75:

.75x/.75= 10/.75
x= 10/.75
x=13.333

now you can get a 2 plastic milk jugs, fill them with 13.333 pounds H2O using measuring cups, etc. (and math, 8 pounds/ gal & half pound per cup) and hang them from the end of your wrench by a string. (the wrench must be perpendicular to a plumb line). after you do all that work, you will wanna run straight to ebay or sears and buy a beam style torque wrench for what, 25 bucks?

Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:35 am

dansvans is right, you cannot afford to do this incorrectly. After years of adjusting valves on AC VWs I am currently replacing the engine in my 78 van. Why? It ate one of the rocker arm locknuts. I was the last one to adjust them so I have to take the blame - evidently it wasn't tight enough.

Andre

Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:54 am

Doesn't Autozone or other parts suppliers rent torque wrenches for free? I have used all kinds of tools from them. Give them a try.
Dean

Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:24 am

Thanks for the advice, guys. It's tough times indeed when even a meager $15 is well beyond the budget. Right about now, if I can't fix her for free she's simply not getting fixed, and I'm not ready for that yet. I was hoping there might be a simple rule of thumb for gauging roughly how much force was being exerted, as well as hoping that this was a loose tolerance item rather that the tight tolerance it is sounding.

I don't have a FLAPS here in Phx, but now that it's mentioned I seem to recall that maybe Autozone has a similar program? I'll give them a visit, as I'm *quite* certain my elderly widow neighbor doesn't have an inch pound torque wrench. :lol:

edit: to what spec should I tighten them?

Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:07 am

Orange wrote: I don't have a FLAPS here in Phx, but now that it's mentioned I seem to recall that maybe Autozone has a similar program? I'll give them a visit, as I'm *quite* certain my elderly widow neighbor doesn't have an inch pound torque wrench. :lol:

edit: to what spec should I tighten them?

You don't have an auto parts store in Phoenix? I find that awfully hard to believe. You don't need an inch pound torque wrench, the spec for the rocker to cylinder head bolts is 10 ft/lbs. Most FLAPS take a deposit on the tool, you use it and return it and your deposit is returned. You can do it right, and for free.

Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:49 am

Orange wrote: Thanks for the advice, guys. It's tough times indeed when even a meager $15 is well beyond the budget. Right about now, if I can't fix her for free she's simply not getting fixed, and I'm not ready for that yet. I was hoping there might be a simple rule of thumb for gauging roughly how much force was being exerted, as well as hoping that this was a loose tolerance item rather that the tight tolerance it is sounding.

I don't have a FLAPS here in Phx, but now that it's mentioned I seem to recall that maybe Autozone has a similar program? I'll give them a visit, as I'm *quite* certain my elderly widow neighbor doesn't have an inch pound torque wrench. :lol:

edit: to what spec should I tighten them?
FLAPS is a slang acronym for F_riendly L_ocal A_uto P_arts S_tore.
There ARE some in Phoenix, I recon.
About the lock nut tightness. I personally have NEVER used a torque wrench there. I've owned torque wrenches for 40 years. Perhaps it's selective recall, but I think I've never had a failure on the valve adjusting locknuts.
I just tighten them (the jamnuts) pretty f---ing tight with a 13-15mm box end wrench pulling with one hand. This is a bit longer wrench than the 13mm combo wrench and makes more ft-lb at the same pull.
This is a good time to check and replace any worn adjuster screws. They seem to be hardened only on the tips and once they wear thru the hard part, the screw will wear quickly. I just rob good ones from parts motors, but the screws can't be that expensive. There are probably VW only parts stores in Phoenix that sell stuff like that.
Now if you are asking how to set the lash on the screws, that is entirely something else. Ask or search "adjust hydraulic lifters".
Al

Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:07 am

i always just tighten them like a spark plug. nice & snug but not TIGHT.

Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:17 am

Although I am a bit anal, have many wrenches (see a past tirade on actual results of having all calibrated professionally) and always use them, I'll say this. In a pinch (field repair, nothing but basic hand tools) most fasteners are properly torqued when a regular length box end wrench is given a good solid snug pull by an average size/strength person. Wrenches get longer so that you can put more torque on them as fastener size increases for that reason. A lot of variables there obviously. A socket driver will almost always overtorque a fastener for the same pull because your torque arm is longer for most of the fasteners covered by the appropriate sized driver. (IE compare the length of say a 8mm wrench with your 1/4" socket driver handle when you have an 8mm socket on it.) If the guy can't afford a torque wrench now (though I mean really $25-30 probably for some generic thing) you got to do what you got to do. It is a critical area though, but I'm sure millions of air cooled VW's have had their valves adjusted over the years with only a screwdriver feeler gage and box end wrench.

YMMV
John

Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:24 am

wvukidsdoc wrote: I'm sure millions of air cooled VW's have had their valves adjusted over the years with only a screwdriver feeler gage and box end wrench.

That's great John and nobody is debating that, but again that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about the rocker arm to cylinder head nuts, not valve adjustment locknuts.

Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:36 am

VDubTech wrote: wvukidsdoc wrote: I'm sure millions of air cooled VW's have had their valves adjusted over the years with only a screwdriver feeler gage and box end wrench.

That's great John and nobody is debating that, but again that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about the rocker arm to cylinder head nuts, not valve adjustment locknuts.

Ahh missed that. Same applies, even more so. Those are certainly more likely to be overtorqued than undertorqued as the fastener is relatively very small for what it does. In the field, good solid pull with a regular length box end wrench. I'd garantee that using a socket driver would always overtorque that fastener for most peoples hands.

JOhn

Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:37 am

...just be sure you have the right coper deformed washer under those nuts, :wink: torque is torque, but heat eats torque if the wrong materials are combined

Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:22 pm

:oops:

LOL I've been on this forum for a couple of years and always thought FLAPS was an East Coast auto parts chain! :lol:

I know it sounds silly sweating over $20. I used to pay three times that just for my haircuts but I haven't been able to find work since last November and our savings have already been tapped. $20 will feed the family for several days.

The nearest Autozone is a good 40 minute walk and it's 110F out, so I'll pick up where I left off tonight.

Question: How much resistance should I feel with the feelers when adjusting the valves? Should it fit through the gap being measured fairly easily or should it be tight enough to just wiggle the shim through?

Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:47 pm

Orange wrote: Question: How much resistance should I feel with the feelers when adjusting the valves? Should it fit through the gap being measured fairly easily or should it be tight enough to just wiggle the shim through?

I've never used a torque wrench for lifter nuts... :( 11mm socket with a 1/4" ratchet...medium tight by my standards. Over tightening is the problem here.....YMMV

As far as the valve adjustment goes with your "shim" (feeler gauge) I prefer a snug .007" to a lose .006".......again YMMV

Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:18 pm

Orange wrote: :oops:

LOL I've been on this forum for a couple of years and always thought FLAPS was an East Coast auto parts chain! :lol:

if people would click on more then just the forum tab and the classifieds tab with a few clicks to the gallery tab, they MIGHT learn something.
all those little tabs at the top of the page, such a pity

Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:29 am

Orange wrote: :oops:

LOL I've been on this forum for a couple of years and always thought FLAPS was an East Coast auto parts chain! :lol:

I know it sounds silly sweating over $20. I used to pay three times that just for my haircuts but I haven't been able to find work since last November and our savings have already been tapped. $20 will feed the family for several days.

The nearest Autozone is a good 40 minute walk and it's 110F out, so I'll pick up where I left off tonight.

Question: How much resistance should I feel with the feelers when adjusting the valves? Should it fit through the gap being measured fairly easily or should it be tight enough to just wiggle the shim through?
You need a BICYCLE to go to Autozone. Even this old man has one, very often inside my Westy.
Steady drag is how I'd describe the pull on the feeler. If you need to wigggle, it is slightly too tight. Keep in mind, if the screws of the valve tips have much wear, the blade will bind. The screws are supposed to have a slight crown.
Al