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Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:43 am

I am giving consideration to purchasing a drill press operated flycutter. can anybody recomend a brand or tell me what to stay away from. I will be doing light clean up cuts and possibly opening cases for 92s.

Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:46 am

Stay away from all drill-press flycutters.

Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:47 pm

The centering bar included with all of those drill press apperatus are virtually useless. Not even remotely accurate. Finding a way to rigidly mount the case to a drill press is more of a task.

Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:12 pm

Gene Berg

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=392_2919

It's what I have used successfully on many engines, If you follow the instructions, have a good drill press, and take the time to setup correctly you can get good results.

A Mill would be ideal, but we don't all have the room - I know I don't...

Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:35 pm

Looks like its NLA...... I was considering getting This one and having it turned down to fit my press....

Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:03 pm

I have one that I have had for many years. The type that bolts to the case or heads. I opened up the housing so it would cut heads for 94's and used a battery powered drill to operate it. I never had a problem with it as long as I kept the cutter sharp. It cut accuratly and cleanly.

Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:18 pm

They do work, but there is no accurate way to control the center-to-center distance (of bores), squareness to case center, perpendicular to main bores.... Or equal depths of cut, pocket or Deck.

Basically they will screw up nice parts and produce an engine that fights itself, produces heat and friction.... And cannot compete with a properly machined engine with the same parts.

Do yourself a favor and hire a good machinist, or buy a mill and practice.

Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:31 pm

Joe. Many people have no access to a good machinist. And buying a mill is out of the question. I bought mine when I lived overseas and after I had sent 2 cases to be machined and both came back damaged and cut wrong.
Ill admit I trashed a case or 2 myself and a few heads but after a little experience it can be done in your sleep in just a few minutes, on the side of the road if necessary.
I agree that the best way is to send it out to someone experienced in VW machining but when that is out of the question or you are the serious do it yourself type they do work well after a little practice

Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:35 pm

Is this what you will use on your new alum cases? :roll:

Any person with real experience building engines that perform and last would laugh their ass off....

Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:51 pm

No.. But I have a fully equiped machine shop now.

Ive measured enough cases and heads over the years to note that even the one's done by the top names in the VW world are not necessarly accurately machined either. It all depends on the skill and attention to detail of the person doing the work.. The correct tool helps but it is useless in the hands of someone who doesent care. It is all about skill and the application of that skill.

Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:58 pm

Jimmy111 wrote: Joe. Many people have no access to a good machinist. And buying a mill is out of the question. I bought mine when I lived overseas and after I had sent 2 cases to be machined and both came back damaged and cut wrong.
Ill admit I trashed a case or 2 myself and a few heads but after a little experience it can be done in your sleep in just a few minutes, on the side of the road if necessary.
I agree that the best way is to send it out to someone experienced in VW machining but when that is out of the question or you are the serious do it yourself type they do work well after a little practice

These setups just don't have the proper rigidity and repeatability of milling machine. Anything is possible, but in the hands of an amateur machinist acceptable results are hard to achieve. I know it would be a battle the whole process. Maintaining proper tolerances, flatness, squareness, parallelism etc is not easy. Totally avoid any unsupported flycutter use in a drill press. The play in the quill is usually WAY too loose, and you'll ask for trouble.

Just know what battles you're facing, and weigh the costs/odds

Alex

Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:59 pm

Funny how many long time builders used their kitchen table, Ian Irving for one.

A good worker who understands his tools both in use and limitations can be really successful and achieve good results. A ham fisted one with the latest in uber machinery can still stuff it up.

Some people carried away and forget that for some a good machinist is themselves and the tools they have. Funny thing is many home brew engines and ideas have changed the world!

I have this great old photo in a mag of pops yoshimura with a valve in a hand cranked drill press with a file..... but what would he know? :roll:

Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:44 pm

I have the room for a mill but the funds are lacking. I will probably save and look for a used bridgeport, gorton or cincinatti. It is frustrating sending out work for things I am capable of doing. I guess the 3-4 hundred that I would shell out for a drillpress type would help out with a payment towards a mill. It is VERY difficult for me to not go out and hit the local machinery supply with the visa card. Having bad credit sucks but having good credit also has its drawbacks, like using personal restraint......

Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:08 am

Bashr52 wrote: Looks like its NLA...... I was considering getting This one and having it turned down to fit my press....

Don't turn it down smaller than 3/4inch. Or it will flop around and break land on your forhead. :D

There is not such thing as an amatuer machinist. Once you are a "machinist" you will know layout, set up and know what it takes to make the cut. Just because someone brings home a Bridgeport does not make them a machinist. I have met many home machinists that are very gifted/talented. But all have learned it starting from the bottom...reading and doing. The process is the same in school.

The Berg-type flycut tool can make some nice holes w/ slightly looser tolerances but very limited in quality.

Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:11 am

sort of jacking a thread here, but is it possible to use a regular fly cutter on a mill? Would you need some special fixtures? Would you bolt case halfs together or not?

Thanks,
Anton

Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:35 pm

Why would you want to bolt the case halves together? How are you going to set up proper perpendicularity? How are you going to flycut flat?

You can use the Berg-style boring tool in a regular mill to give power, but why bother if you can just set up on the mill?

Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:10 pm

my grandpa just gave me his mill (ex aircraft mechanic) and this thread got me going. I was looking at the bolt on type cutters and centers to get it right, if advising against them what type of jigs for the case and heads do you recommend. if making them your self how do you get started? I used to work at a vw parts place who would rebuild there own engines and they just used a large drill press and a berg cutter. For the case the stud side case jig was huge square tubing with holes cut for the studs. Is this what I need to build or was that ultra hill billy?

Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:55 am

I am sure grandpa has a nice resume'. If he is still around, I will ask him to mentor you and start reading some of his books on machining, jig set up and tool/cutter grinding. The process have not changed. A lot have been automated but the technique of cutting has not.

Cutting is the easy part...only take few seconds. But the set up required to actually do the cut is where you have to cut the mustard.

Crack the book and go right to precision holes and boring, centering, flycutting. Clamping and set up are a must read too.

What kind of mill did gramps give you? Any toolings? Precision tools?
Inheritance can be great, ain't it? But also, they can be a curse at the same time.

Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:30 am

grandpa is still around but he is 100 years old and standing in the shop for long periods of time is not possible.

As far as the mill, not sure of the brand, it was a off shore brand purchased in the early 70's.

Since i have never taken any shop classes i am not sure what you mean by toolings but since he used to rebuild aircraft heads he should have a lot of accessories for the mill and drill press. I have seen the heads and seat cutters and they are HUGE! Intake valves are 3 inches plus and the guides are at least 1/2 OD.

A bunch of bore gauges, calipers, chucks, bits, and a 60's craftsman lathe, metal cutting band saw, and a 20 ton press are in the shop.

since i am about to get laid off I would like to learn how to use the equipment and hopefully start doing some machine work to add to my engine rebuild business and cut the machining cost a bit.

Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:32 pm

Having the gun is useless unless you have ammo to go w/ it. :D

Toolings are what you use to set up and cut the workpiece. Precision tools are also required to check the work before and after each cut.

The lathe only needs the toolpost and tailstock tools.

The mill will need the clamps and paralles (the bigger the better), centering tools/gauges, collets, vise, boring head and bars, endmills, drills so on. If you want to get fancy...also need rotary table, spacer chuck, deviding head and index plates. The list goes on w/ a mill.

The amount of toolings will dictate what you can do w/ the mill. IT costs a bit of money to fully tool up a milling machine.

I would leave granpa alone to his relaxation. I have seen his age w/ full cognition and activity. God bless him. I am sure he has seen a lot.