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Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:31 pm

Will 195R15's work on my 72' Bug? I found someone sellin t hem alot cheaper than what the 165's are goin for but I need to know if they will work. What do you guys think?

Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:35 pm

Depends on your wheels. I have 195/65R15s on my sedan and they fit fine, but those are on 5.5" 8-spoke wheels. If you have the stock 4.5" wide wheels I don't think they'll fit.

Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:21 pm

I have stock wheels and I run 195's on the back. They barely fit, the guy at the tire place didn't want to do it but I told him it would work. He threw them on and was amazed that I was right. Run the 195's they look better in the back than the stocks.

Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:55 pm

I would think that 195R15 tires would gear you up too tall ~ 7% taller.

Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:58 pm

According to the Tire Rack, the 165s are 25.4" diameter, the 195s are 25" even.

Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:16 pm

I'm running 195/65-15 tires on stock rims. They look a lot better and so far (12 months) no problems. Handles and stops a lot better too.

Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:35 pm

i got 195s on stock tires. better stopping power.

i've seen 205s on stock wheels. most places wont do it though, due to the pinch it creates...

Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:57 am

Yes 195/65R15 tires will fit on a 4.5 inch stock VW rim and they are virtually the same diameter or circumference as 165s, but I really decided against them even though I know lots of people do run them. The VW 4.5" rim is flat out too narrow for a 65 series tire. On the front I am looking for a 195/70 or possibly a 185/75 (if they make that size) tire on a 4.5" wide rim. 5.5 inch rims with a 195/70 tire would be a very good combination on the front. I like to go up one size on the rear such as a 205/70R15 and if possible use a 5.5 inch rim. To get all 4 tires the same I think 195/70R15 tire size is the best compromise for stock engines, either on the 4.5 " rim or preferably on the 5.5" rim. The concept that too few people understand is that the higher you go in series (65, 70, 0R 75) the lower you go in size. i.e. a 185/75 tire is essentially equal to a 195/70 tire in diameter or circumference. This is not exact to the 1/100th of an inch but is a rule widely followed in the tire industry.

Remembering that the the 165 is considered an 80 series tire, I am experimenting repeat experimenting with a 205/75R15 on 4.5" rims on the rear and a mildly hopped up engine. The concept is that it will be very close to freeway flyer (3.88) gearing with stock (smaller) tires. The205s fit in the rear fender well and "improve"the rake of the car imho.

Two additional comments: An extra set of wheels is a blessing, and circumference is always a better way to compare tire sizes than "height.

Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:56 am

stuvw2mny wrote: , and "circumference" is always a better way to compare tire sizes than "height".

The front tire's height is directly related how the speedometer displays your speed correctly. The rears should match for when it's time to rotate and balance them. Stock wheels. The original 5.60-15 or 155/165-15 tire sizes had a profile of around 82 or 83, the closest you can get today is 165r15 which, as you said, is about an 80 profile. The tire height is close, but shorter than stock.

IIRC, the 82-83 profile stock tires, back in the day, had a tire height of about 25.6-25.8, depending upon the brands available at that time. When buying tires for stock wheels, you should go for what fits the wheel best along with the tire height. BTW, at a glance, it's usually easier to measure tire height before tire circumference. Think about it.

IMO, 185mm and 195mm width tire will fit stock wheels, but if you go for the sizes that have a profile tall enough to get that stock tire height, or close to it, you will have excessive sidewall flexing. Plus they're a bitch to get them mounted. Most people who do this just add extra tire pressure to counter this, which is a hack's way of fixing it. Or you go to a lower profile, which fits the wheels much better with little or no sidewall flex using stock tire pressures. A tad shorter on the tire size is no big deal since the speedometer displays close to what the actual speed is.

4.5" wide wheels roughly translates to 115mm, 5.5" at 140mm. Tire widths of 185 or 195mm are in the 7.25-7.75" width range, which are better suited to 6-7.5" wide wheels, BUT work well on 5.5" wheels as well because of the choices you have in profile.

What tire(s) are you gonna research for your wheels?

Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:52 pm

Virtually everyone has their own opinion about tires. The original question to this thread was about using 195/15 tires as a substitute for the 165R15 tires that were "standard" on VWs for many years. The original question did not specify the profile (aspect ratio, per Rattie Fattie's post and correct tire industry nomenclature) of the 195 tires.

The 15" diameter VW 4-bolt stock wheel widths are 4.0 and 4.5 inches, with many different after-market wheel sizes available. There are many VWs running around with both 4.0 and 4.5 inch wheels intermixed on the same vehicle, due to lack of knowledge on the part of owners and others who worked on them. With the 165R15 tires it didn't make a whole lot of difference to the average VW owner. With the discontinuance of the 165R15 size VW tire, it becomes more important.

Many air-cooled bug owners are now running 195/65R15 tires on all 4 wheels. In terms of tire diameter or circumference these 195s are slightly smaller than the 165s, but pretty close, and 195/65R15 tires are widely available. But mounting 65 series profile tires on 4.0 inch rims is positively scary and not very desirable even, in my opinion, on 4.5 inch rims. Most VWs will accomodate 5.5 inch wide aftermarket rims. To safely mount 195/65R15 tires these wider rims should be used. Since I was dealing earlier with a bug that I was going to sell with stock 4.5 inch rims a higher profile (70 or 75) tire is safer and probably slightly longer wearing. Hence my recommendation for 70 or 75 profile tires on stock air cooled VW rims, which were manufactured for the 80 (or 82, if you wish) profile 165R15 tires. Other people will disagree, which is their perogative on their car. Competent tire dealers will oppose mounting low profile tires on narrow width rims, largely for safety reasons.

For street driven cars (as opposed to race or autocross cars) I expressed earlier my practice of running a larger diameter (size) tire on the rear of my cars. If you have higher than stock horsepower an increase in profile width (say from a 75 or 70 to a 65) may also be desirable. I am not alone in this practice. Yes, when you do this you give up the practice of rotating tires between front and rear, but is that really important on an air cooled VW? I try to keep near-stock sized tires on the front wheels because the speedometer is driven by the left front wheel, but bigger tires on the rear will reduce the engine rpm at a given highway speed and improve gas economy slightly. I think larger rear tires give a slightly improved ride, increased tire life, and it may give the car a slight change in rake. If you are the type driver that likes to spin tires and have loud engine noise, you would probably prefer smaller than standard size tires on the rear. If rotating tires is important to you stick to identical size tires all around. To each his own. Within reason, it is your choice.

I also spoke earlier of experimenting with 205/75R15 tires mounted on 4.5" rims on the rear of a VW that was slightly hopped up. One objective was to reduce engine rpm and get better economy on $4.00/gallon gas. The vehicle was a 72 beetle with "stock" 165R15 tires on the front. The 205/75 tires fit on the stock 4.5 inch rim better than the 195/65 tires and also fitted inside the stock fenders with no interference. The car had what seemed to be an improved ride, and an increase in rake, which was visually pleasing and hopefully reduced wind resistance (under the car) by some insignificant factor. Yes, it also seemed to require a slight bit more throttle when initially engaging the clutch, but no noticeable change in shift points. So, the increased tire size produced the desired improvements without the cost of aftermarket wheels. Use this experiment as a data point in making your tire choice.

Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:59 am

stuvw2mny wrote: The VW 4.5" rim is flat out too narrow for a 65 series tire.
stuvw2mny wrote: But mounting 65 series profile tires on 4.0 inch rims is positively scary and not very desirable even, in my opinion, on 4.5 inch rims.

let's stop the confusion on tire sizing :roll:
the profile (series) has nothing to do with the actual width of the tire tread

Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:38 pm

My car is a stock 1600DP 71 Super beetle with 165r15 tires.I put a set of 205/75/15 on my rear 4.5 inch rims today and there is quite a bit of difference.The car has a better ride overall.I put them on to decrease the rpm at 60 to 70 mph and they certainly do that.Let alone actully hearing the radio it also decreased the engine temp by 20 degrees or so according to my new temp guage installed a month ago.Handling in the city is even smoother and there is no change in starting off or shifting gears.CIP1 in Canada calculated a formula on CB Performance Parts website and this is freeware.They entered my car data such as 4th ger ratio in my stock tranny,speed at 60 mph,my new tire size,etc.The answer was that at 60 mph I would achieve a rpm of 3000 versus 3700 rpm with 165r15 and would gain 8 mph of spped at 3000 rpm.I dealt with CIP1 for the past year and a half I find them very knowledgable about bugs.I certainly achieved what I set out to do and they also look pretty cool filling some of the rear wheel well void.As far as improved gas milage,it is too early to tell but I filled up and took it for a 40 mile highway run and the needle hardly moved.The tire installer had no problem with them on the stock rim as they said they were in there 3 percent tolerance in what it took to took to swap sizes.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:21 pm

Fattie wrote:

let's stop the confusion on tire sizing :roll:
the profile (series) has nothing to do with the actual width of the tire tread

you are correct that the aspect ratio has nothing to do with the width of the tire tread, it plays a big role in determining "safe" when using a rim that isn't within the recommended size.. there are lots of things about tires that folks don't understand

Kelley wrote: BTW, at a glance, it's usually easier to measure tire height before tire circumference. Think about it.

absolutely it's easier... but less accurate... even less accurate is using a tire size calculator for anything other than a guideline. pick up a few manufacturer tire specification sheets and you can see that two tires sized the same can have a significant difference in "size"... they usually state "revolutions per mile" and you can see numbers all over the place for the same tire size...

Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:00 pm

bugninva wrote: Fattie wrote:

let's stop the confusion on tire sizing :roll:
the profile (series) has nothing to do with the actual width of the tire tread

you are correct that the aspect ratio has nothing to do with the width of the tire tread, it plays a big role in determining "safe" when using a rim that isn't within the recommended size.. there are lots of things about tires that folks don't understand

Kelley wrote: BTW, at a glance, it's usually easier to measure tire height before tire circumference. Think about it.

absolutely it's easier... but less accurate... even less accurate is using a tire size calculator for anything other than a guideline. pick up a few manufacturer tire specification sheets and you can see that two tires sized the same can have a significant difference in "size"... they usually state "revolutions per mile" and you can see numbers all over the place for the same tire size...

Buginva, You've typed exactly what I would do. A nail on the head, as it were. I only mentioned the other method as a "guide", for someone who doesn't have the time to actually find the best tire for them. It isn't the best method, i'll admit it now, but it'll get somebody close who just got paid and wants a set of tires now.

Videoguy seemed to find tires that would work for him, but ultimately, time will tell. He'll have to report on the mileage he's getting, not only for the fuel he uses, but how long the tires last. And on how many miles per gallon he's getting, well, that's depending on more than just the tires, like the state of his engine tune, as well as the suspension/chassis. And about the 3% speed difference that the CIP guy told him,,,,,,,,???

And for those folks just reading this thread for the first time, and aren't clear what Fattie's diagram means, well, here you go, pulled directly frm another tire posting,,,,,,

Kelley wrote: Fattie wrote:

Just as an extra FYI for those who still don't know what some of those numbers mean looking at this diagram, using this size as an example, 185/75-14.

185 is the tire's width @ 185mm

75 is the sidewall height aspect ratio of the treadwidth, bead to tread, in this case, 75% of 185mm = 138.75mm sidewall height.

14, of course, represents the size wheel that the tire fits on.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:12 pm

I understand what you are saying but I don't understand what you mean buy numbers all over the place for the same tire size. I guess all I can go by are two things.A reputable tire dealer says I am okay to go up to 205 from 165 and feel safe about it or else I know they would have not installed these on my bug.I know people can get lost in tire sizing data like they can get lost on other factual info on another topic.I guess you have to really do your homework and listen to the advice from people in the industry.After all I would hate to blow a tire on a bug at 60mph and never asked the pros if it was okay to do that.Better safe than sorry.And the second being the techs at CIP who were vw mechanics in their younger years and have kept up with the current trails and tribulations of experimentation.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:21 pm

videoguy009 wrote: ,,,, but I don't understand what you mean by numbers all over the place for the same tire size.

Buginva mentions this because you can have a variation on the tires specs. Using the same size, tire specs can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. One will have a tire height of 25.5, while the same size tire from a different factory will have a different tire height. As an example, go to www.tirerack.com and search for a certain size tire. You'll get several to choose from. Go down the list and click on the "spec" button/tab for each size/manuf/brand , and you'll see what Buginva is talking about.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:27 pm

what he said....

:lol:

Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:56 pm

I see what you mean on the specs.Why don't they have a standard in place for these specs.Are they that close that they don,t really matter are they playing with our safety thru politics.In your opinion would you run what I am running?

Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:55 pm

If you look at the tire height differences you'll see that they are usually only a fraction of an inch, not a significant performance or safety difference. I'm sure the height differences are due to tire design tolerances.

There is alot of mis-information in this thread, specially from stuvw2mny. 165's are available. If you want a tire that was commonly used on '70's Beetles, you can still buy 165/15 Michelin XZX tires from Coker. These will give you the performance your car was originally designed for. As noted by Fatie above, the aspect ratio has nothing to do with the tire width. If you have the same width tire [ie: 185], the width is the same whether it's aspect ratio is 65 or 80.

As for the original posters question on whether or not 195's will work on a stock '72 Beetle rim, yes, they will. One thing to consider is the aspect ratio so you can match your cars original tire height if a minor speedo discrepancy is a concern.

One other thing stuvw2mny, your comment that "competent" tire dealer wouldn't mount a low profile tire on a narrow rim, how do you explain a 145/65/15 mounted on a 4.5" wheel and a 175/55/15 on a 5.5" wheel which are the stock tire sizes of new smart cars. I'm sure any "competent" tire dealer would be happy to mount those tires on a car.

-jeffrey