TheSamba.com :: View topic - Replacing Wheel Bolts with STUDS and NUTS

Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:51 am

First let me say I will not even consider "thread in" studs.... Part of problem is poor thread quality in some of the drums. Although drums have good life left in them.

IF you have replaced "wheel bolts" with PRESS IN STUDS and Wheel Nuts would you share what particular stud (part number - source) you used and what process you used to install them ... 12 mm studs are what I am considering in early VW drums (wide 5). Particularly how did you determine what drill/reamer size to use and were studs in tight enough to prevent them from being "spun" when being tightened or loosened....

After having watched a clown struggle for some time with getting a poorly installed stud loose when he could not get wheel and drum off axle, I do not want to duplicate that problem.

Some have even mentioned a 'spot weld' on stud head to "lock" them from possible spinning if knurled area do not lock stud to drum well. What do you think?

Any suggestions or advice is welcome.

Dale

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:36 am

Ok... Nobody wants admit to doing this?

Here is the plan........

Get DORMAN 610-254 press in studs. Dorman states that stud is M12x1.5 by 41.5 mm... With a "knurl" area diameter of 12.73mm and shoulder length of 8mm...

Since type 1 drums measure about 9.5mm, thick (at threaded area), the 8mm shoulder should press in without shoulder protruding past drum front surface and interfere any tightening of wheel nut.

Threaded portion of drum itself (wheel bolt) actually measure 11.97mm at maximum diameter..... Dorman states (on their website) the hole stud will be pressed into should be .43mm to .69mm SMALLER than knurl diameter of stud...

If I use a 12.20mm drill bit (yes that size is available) to clean up drums (take threads out) and should meet requirement of the "undersizing of hole" ... 12.73mm minus 12.20mm equals .53mm. this value is pretty much in mid range of "undersize" requirement of hole...

Next I plan to use a 20 ton press to force studs into holes... Dorman states a press is necessary because you can not use wheel nut to pull in stud (you can't apply enough force) to get proper seating of stud.

Have not decided on wheel nuts as a "ball" faced nut (12mm radius) meets requirement to put wheels with stock VW centers on drums. Oother side of this that many after market steel wheels use a 60° tapered wheel nut.
I tend to go towards 60° taper wheel nut because the hard driving will be with after market steel wheels.. It is also possible the 60° nuts will work on with VW wheel centers if they have large enough diameter and the stock wheels will be just "roller" wheels when competition tires are off car...

Any comments?

Dale

Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:15 am

I just bought new Dorman lug bolts for my wire wheels. I carry a cheater pipe to put on my 1/2" breaker bar/lug wrench as they DO get hard to break loose!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:41 am

Mike Fisher wrote: I just bought new Dorman lug bolts for my wire wheels. I carry a cheater pipe to put on my 1/2" breaker bar/lug wrench as they DO get hard to break loose!

There is a cure for the problem... Its called grease.....

Before you flip out with "don't grease lug bolts/nuts" routine... Think about this. Its the TORQUE that holds the lugbolts/nuts in place not the galling of dry threads...

Dale

Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:49 am

DO NOT! use acorn lugs on radius seat wheels reagardless of the surface area. you will not have the contact area that you need for the lugnut to seat properly.

Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:53 am

I agree there is a need to lube threads but grease? :shock:

How about anti seize or moly They are engeneered to apply on threads.

Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:15 am

My 17 year old son's Farmer boss told him never grease lug bolts etc! I didn't want to argue, but next time I'll do it my way!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:21 am

If you know enough to use grease then you know that you don't really have to mess with good German engineering? That was your main complaint watching some guy struggle with getting them loose.

Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:27 pm

A little light lube is fine for threads, I would not however use an anti-sieze product on threads as this will change the torque applied to the fastener. Also don't forget about spot facing the drum so your stud sits squarely on the drums inner surface. A little green loctite on the knurled surface of the stud wouldn't hurt.

Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:38 pm

I've used WD-40 on lugs and lugnuts for years with good results. Never lost a wheel. (knock on wood...:lol: )

Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:49 pm

I bought some 12X 1.5 ARP studs from a local speed shop. The drums needed drilling to accomplish the interference fit I was after, but after drilling they pressed in nice and tight. I did have to mill a small [.030] amount off the stud heads to clear my brake hardware, but have been very pleased with the results. Have been running them for 5 years now and everytime I've checked the lugs they've been tight and haven't had any loosen up. The ARP # is 100-7708. I used them to mount up some centerline type wheels and used McGard open ended lugs, they all get a full 1.25" of thread engagement, maybe more. Had to trim the length on the fronts to mount centerline bubbles. I like them so much all my ACVW's are getting the same treatment. And mounting the wheel and tire without having to balance it on my foot while trying to line up lug bolts is soo nice! :D

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:40 pm

Just as a point of general information, most torque specs are based on a non lubricated installation. Using a lubricant in a situation where none is specified will change the torque value required for that application.

Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:41 pm

sammyphsyco wrote: . Also don't forget about spot facing the drum so your stud sits squarely on the drums inner surface. A little green loctite on the knurled surface of the stud wouldn't hurt.

Good points....

Dale

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:44 am

Mike Fisher wrote: If you know enough to use grease then you know that you don't really have to mess with good German engineering? That was your main complaint watching some guy struggle with getting them loose.

Ah... You have missread some of what was written....

One point is some of the good German engineering is damaged to a point that it need repair... Munged threads in otherwise good drum...Who know the history over last 40 or so years... I've only had it for 5 months...

Another point is, the "struggle" was because some idiot did not get studs in right during "his" repair and then he suffered for it... I do not what to "suffer" from my repairs...

Dale

Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:49 pm

sammyphsyco wrote: A little light lube is fine for threads, I would not however use an anti-sieze product on threads as this will change the torque applied to the fastener. Also don't forget about spot facing the drum so your stud sits squarely on the drums inner surface. A little green loctite on the knurled surface of the stud wouldn't hurt.

How is anti-sieze going to change the torque applied?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:26 pm

El Vocho wrote: sammyphsyco wrote: A little light lube is fine for threads, I would not however use an anti-sieze product on threads as this will change the torque applied to the fastener. Also don't forget about spot facing the drum so your stud sits squarely on the drums inner surface. A little green loctite on the knurled surface of the stud wouldn't hurt.

How is anti-sieze going to change the torque applied? Changes the drag on the threads...

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:08 pm

If you do the research .... Lubricated threads usually torque about 10ft-lbs higher than "dry" threads....

Dale

Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:13 pm

I've had very good success with thread-in studs for my non-race use car, 8 years and many thousands of very hard miles and no problem. Purchased as a set with Porsche pattern disc brakes from CB many years ago. I beat the car up, roast the tires a little, but don't do true burn outs or race. Big meaty rubber, but not slicks or cheaters. I've stripped out rotors and broken axles, but no harm to the thread-in studs.

I've found them a very practical, effective solution to stock lug bolts.

For the race cars we use 14 mm press-in studs. Special 14mm stud drill bit on the drill press, also spot face the holes for the stud heads. And since we don't have a press we use a 3-lb sledge to knock them in place, and a little blue lock tight.

Also, a tiny touch of copper anti-seize on all the studs, and refresh it every time the wheel's off. Especially with Porsche or similar alloy lug nuts. Always with the alloy nuts.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:22 pm

Tac the studs on the inside of the drum, if you ever have one slip and start spinning you'll be hating life.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:10 pm

OK then
what size or length should i get of the screw in type studs
for a Mahle Gas Burner on regular type 3 brakes

the lug bolts are 38mm i think wich is 1.5 inches
but would that be long enough to reach out to the nuts

Can anyone give me reference on this page

http://www.prestigewheel.com/Image2800.asp#14%20mm%20-%20Base%20Thread

38mm, 45mm, 63.5

I think the porsche ones come in 38 and 45 maybe
but i dont want to go and mount them and Not have them long enough

Would the set up be the same as the Pedrinis or the Fuchs