TheSamba.com :: View topic - GL 4 or GL 5

Mon May 14, 2012 4:06 pm

Wildthings wrote: Schwing wrote: Thank you very much for the insight, I really appreciate that. Unfortunately I know very little about the trans and its history other than I would have to agree its due to PO's shifting technique.
I drained the old GL1 and put in Lucas 80W/90W GL5 and it now only intermittently pops out of third, essentially when under full load. Before this flush it would pop out regardless of what I did. I agree I will seek a rebuild next winter, but I was hoping something would get me through this summer and at least make it to a couple of shows since its spent the last 3 years just sitting in the garage as a piece of furniture.

Many thanks for the explanation of syncros and dog teeth. I know very little about transmissions.

There is little in any gear oil that is going to affect whether it pops out of gear or not. Since it sounds like something did change then I would be looking a shift linkage and engine mount problems, especially if the transmission is not the original. If a six rib has been installed in an earlier Bay that had a 3 or 5 rib, then the shift coupler can hit a frame cross member preventing you from being able to get the gears fully engaged.

Its a split case type 1 1957 trans. I believe its the original trans, but I have little to no history on this car. I can get into all of the gears just fine, in fact its even easier since the fluid change. Who knows? I do think I HAVE to rebuild this, just hoping it can last through the summer.

Tue May 15, 2012 12:32 am

torsionbar wrote: double clutching when using 1st or reverse, a
double clutching to engage reverse ? I'm thinking that's a typo.
Stop the car completely, then put it in reverse. If it grinds while you're not moving, your clutch pedal freeplay is usually too much. Or something else is turning the input shaft. Fix the real problem.

torsionbar wrote: blipping the throttle to rev-match on the down shifts (between all gears) will make syncros and dog teeth last nearly forever. This won't help the dog teeth.

One thing that is hard on the dog teeth is pulling the shifter out of gear without pushing the clutch pedal in. Even though you might think there's no load on the gears, there usually is some load.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:28 am

My Haynes manual suggests I use SAE 80 Hypoid gearbox oil. My local Halfords only does:-

Castrol Manual EP80W/90 manual transmission fluid designed to lubricate spur & helical gears.

or

Castrol Manual SMX-S Gear Oil is a fully synthetic SAE 75W/85 manual gear oil.

or

Halfords Gear Oil EP 75W/90 GL-5 i extreme pressure, multi-grade gear oil

or

Comma Gear Oil SX75W/90 GL4 is a semi-synthetic, multigrade gear oil for today's five & six speed gearboxes

or

The Halfords Differential Gear Oil EP 80W/90 GL-5 is an extreme pressure, multi-grade gear oil.

or

Castrol Driveline Syntrax Universal is a fully synthetic SAE 75W/90 manual gear oil 1L

or

Halfords Gear Oil EP 80W/90 GL-4 extreme pressure, multi-grade gear oil.

or

Halfords Gear Oil EP 75W/80 GL-4 extreme pressure, multi-grade gear oil.

Is it worth me adding this to my box, currently my box has no problems:-

Slick 50 Manual Gearbox Treatment helps protect against friction & the extreme pressure of gears under stress.

or

Molyslip Gearbox Protector has a unique plating action, which protects & reduces wear in your gearbox, steering box & back axle.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:29 am

Its all very confusing & I just want the best for my gearbox.
:shock:

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:51 am

Stick with a GL4 gear lube for your Bus trans-axle. You don't need the Slick 50 additive.

It pricey, but I'm using a synthetic 75w-90 GL4 rated oil in my 71 Type 2 and I'm quite happy with it.

- Andrew in Austin, TX -

Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:00 am

aryue wrote: Stick with a GL4 gear lube for your Bus trans-axle.
Why?

Please explain.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:30 pm

I went for this in the end, together with a tube of Molyslip:-

I bought 4L put the gearbox on the workbench level & after 3 L the oil was leaking out of the box. I'll take the 4th Litre back saving my self £9.99
:D

Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:49 pm

Got the exact same spec in my Bug dude, the Castrol 80w90 + the Molyslip. Next time I will go for Amsoil synthetic though.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:35 pm

Sounds like you British have a wider selection of GL-4 lubes than us folks on the left side of the pond.

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:27 am

Ross UK wrote: Got the exact same spec in my Bug dude, the Castrol 80w90 + the Molyslip. Next time I will go for Amsoil synthetic though.

Why is that? :D

Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:48 am

Wildthings wrote: Sounds like you British have a wider selection of GL-4 lubes than us folks on the left side of the pond.

We do it would seem, you can locate it pretty much anywhere that sells auto parts.

.

Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:51 am

chrisradioman wrote: Ross UK wrote: Got the exact same spec in my Bug dude, the Castrol 80w90 + the Molyslip. Next time I will go for Amsoil synthetic though.

Why is that? :D

I'm already running Amsoil synth in the crankcase and I'm very impressed with it. Amsoil do a GL4 75w90 transaxle especific oil that sounds spot on for our needs.

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:51 pm

Ross UK wrote: chrisradioman wrote: Ross UK wrote: Got the exact same spec in my Bug dude, the Castrol 80w90 + the Molyslip. Next time I will go for Amsoil synthetic though.

Why is that? :D

I'm already running Amsoil synth in the crankcase and I'm very impressed with it. Amsoil do a GL4 75w90 transaxle especific oil that sounds spot on for our needs. That's fair enough, too late now the new stuff is in. I think I'll change it all again in about 5 years. :D

Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:56 pm

SGKent wrote: Introducing Penn Grade 1 'Classic' Multi-Purpose GL-4 SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil
Date: 2/7/2012
BRAD PENN® LUBRICANTS
AMERICAN REFINING GROUP, INC.
PRESS RELEASE
For Immediate Release
February 7, 2012

American Refining Group, Inc. (ARG) (the former Kendall Refinery), manufacturer of quality Brad Penn® Lubricants, announced the addition of Penn Grade 1® ‘Classic’ Multi-Purpose GL-4 SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil to its High Performance “The Green Oil®” line.

The Penn Grade 1® ‘Classic’ Multi-Purpose GL-4 SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil “The Green Oil®” is available in 12/1 quart needle nose bottles and 55 gallon drums. BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® ‘Classic’Multi-Purpose GL-4 SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil is specially blended using high quality PENN-GRADEä mineral base stocks and select additive technologies. It is designed to be used with “yellow” metallurgy (brass, bronze, copper) and other ‘soft’ metals used in synchronizers, bushings, thrust washers and other components typically found in classic manual transmissions and transaxles.

“In applications specifying API GL-4 quality lubricants, use of API GL-5 lubricants with higher extreme pressure additive activity/concentration can damage these ‘soft’ metal components”, stated Ken Tyger, Senior Technical Representative for American Refining Group, Inc.

BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® ‘Classic’ Multi-Purpose GL-4 SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil is recommended for use in such time-honored traditional manual transmissions as those made by Muncie®, Rockwell®, NVG/New Process®, Borg-Warner®, Saginaw® and Ford® as well as those used in many imports. “Always consult the equipment owner’s manual for proper fluid selection”, recommended Mr. Tyger.

“Our high performance oils have become the talk of both the racing industry and classic car market with the high, balanced levels of zinc and phosphorous and our unique base oil cut that stays on engine parts, referred to as ‘wetability’, even when the engine is not running, minimizing ‘dry start’ wear . We have had numerous requests from our classic car customers to add a top quality GL-4 SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil to our Penn Grade 1® High Performance line, and we have done just that”, stated Richard Glady, Vice President of Branded Lubricants, Sales and Marketing for American Refining Group, Inc.

The refinery is the oldest, continuously operated lube oil refinery in the world and the only refinery processing 100% Pennsylvania Grade Crude Oil. It is truly the last MADE IN THE U.S.A. major lubricant refinery.

anyone try this stuff yet? i know its relatively new....im about to pull the trigger on about 8L....for my 091 trans.

Questions im sure has been answered...when switching to a new lube like this, is it worthwhile to blow $30 and 3 L to flush the trans for a few hundred miles with the new lube type then drain and refill one more time to clean out the old unknown oil?

Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:02 pm

rustbus wrote: SGKent wrote: “In applications specifying API GL-4 quality lubricants, use of API GL-5 lubricants with higher extreme pressure additive activity/concentration can damage these ‘soft’ metal components”, stated Ken Tyger, Senior Technical Representative for American Refining Group, Inc.

anyone try this stuff yet? i know its relatively new....im about to pull the trigger on about 8L....for my 091 trans.
Don't do it.

There has never been any documentation of this "damage" to so-called soft or yellow metals due to GL-5 gear oil. I can't count the gearboxes I've opened up, not one single spec of damage to the brass parts. And even if this mythical damage did occur, everyone throws away the synchros in a rebuild anyway. They are a standard rebuild item, readily available, and cost less than $50 for a set.

However, virtually every gearbox I open up shows damage due metal-to-metal contact. This metal-to-metal contact can be minimized by using GL-5 gear oil with it's "higher extreme pressure additive" (to quote your source above). The parts that show this damage are the original German gears and sliders, etc. Parts that are no longer available new and that are expensive when you find NOS ones. The last time I was in Dave Folts' shop, he told me he won't pay a dime for an 091 core until he pulls off the bell housing to inspect the R&P. This is because it is very common to find a burned up R&P due to the PO using inferior GL-4 gear oil.

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:57 am

I guess you missed this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...;start=371

Glenn wrote: I just had my Berg 5 rebuilt by Gary Berg (see article in Hot VW May 2012). I had noisy bearings and a broken tooth from the spider gears. The tranny has over 40,000 miles, but the bearings were not replaced last time and could have over 150,000 miles on them.

I've been using Swepco 201 80W-90 GL/5 and MT-1 for the past 40,000 miles.

Gary said the syncros were "somewhat worn", so we decided to replace them.

Glenn wrote: I've been using Swepco 201 80W-90 and have 35,000-40,000 miles. I don't "beat" on it but I do drive it hard at times and like an old lady most of the time.
Gary Berg wrote: I have always heard good thing about the Swepco Motor oil. I don't know much on the Tranz Oil.... On the oil I have been using the Valvoline 80-90W MT-1 and GL-5 designation and compatible with Limited Slips, part number VV831, so far so good.
Glenn wrote: Also the oil "Valvoline 80-90W MT-1 and GL-5 designation and compatible with Limited Slips, part number VV831" looks like I can get it locally pretty easily. Is this specific for LSD or can it be used in stock 4 speed trannys? I'm often asked for recommendations and want to give the correct info.

Also there's tons of talk about GL5 corroding the syncros but I know it's not true. Since my gear box has 12 years and 40,000 miles in GL5 do you see any evidence of corrosion? If not it just makes everything I've heard correct.
Gary Berg wrote: On the oil, the Valvoline oil works in either with or without a limited slip. I have never seen this corrosion everybody talks about. No evidence of corrosion.

From the Hot VW article on my Berg 5 update.

Here it is.. .from the horse's mouth. First hand experience from someone who's been building transmissions for over 30 years.

End of discussion.

The debate is over... GL5 is better to use. This is from the horse's mouth and not the other end of the animal.

Please stop perpetuating incorrect information.

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:55 am

The horsed mouth that I got recently in the paper work I got from German Transaxle still said to use GL-4 though it did say certain other oils could be used.

Since probably 75% of the ACVW gearboxes I have bought over the years had synchro problems even ones with fairly low mileage, I don't buy the idea that synchros are $50 throw away parts and it doesn't matter what happens to them. It cost me many times that to get a set replaced. Bad synchros are a major annoyance and I will do what is necessary to make mine last long. I want my synchros to last 150,000 miles and not 30,000.

In a million or so miles of driving old VW's I have lost two gear sets, one due to a faulty rebuild and one due to some happening that damaged the pinion bearing prior to my purchasing the van it was installed was in. Both of these boxes were scrapped. My other failures have all been because something flat out broke and had nothing to do with lubrication, yet as i said above 75% of the boxes I have acquired had bad synchros at the time of purchase. Of the boxes that I have sent in to the rebuilders none of the gear sets has needed to be replaced.

With the one exception that I have mentioned before in other posts I have never had the synchros fail all that fast during my ownership when running of non Gl-5 oils, and that one failure occurred when I filled a fairly new box with GL-5 because some so called VW sage said it didn't matter.

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:11 pm

Glenn wrote: The debate is over... .

not really... not just because one builder said so... many others still say different.... debate continues.... :lol:

much like the engine oil "debate", having mulitple builders that have seen differing results tends to put a spotlight on the fact that the lube isn't the only part of the equation, but that debate rages on too... and *always* will....

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:16 pm

bugninva wrote: not really... not just because one builder said so... many others still say different.... debate continues.... :lol:
Add Bruce Tweedle to that list.

So where are all these bad syncros that everyone is taking about. I've yet to see one let along millions since GL5 is what most repair shops use for the past 10 years or longer.

If you can't provide pictures, then how about a show of hands?

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:24 pm

Glenn wrote: bugninva wrote: not really... not just because one builder said so... many others still say different.... debate continues.... :lol:
Add Bruce Tweedle to that list.

So where are all these bad syncros that everyone is taking about. I've yet to see one let along millions since GL5 is what most repair shops use for the past 10 years or longer.

If you can't provide pictures, then how about a show of hands?

they can be added to both sides of the list, I was just commenting because you declared "debate over" and told someone to "Please stop perpetuating incorrect information" based on one opinion.... others may have the same faith in their builder that you do... :wink:

as I said, the debate will continue.... forever... that much is a guarantee as long as guys see different results, even if the results are not solely caused by the lube... Any prudent person realizes this... I run GL-5 and have had no apparent ill results from doing so(for years)... the guy that built my transaxle agreed that GL-5 was better... that's only enough for me to speak about my experience, not declare the "debate over"...