TheSamba.com :: View topic - GL 4 or GL 5

Wed May 15, 2019 12:16 am

Bruce wrote: Italjohn wrote: GL-5 oils often use sulfur-containing lubricants. Sulfur corrodes precious metals (yellow metals).
False.
This so-called corrosion only occurs at temps above 250ºF, and since it's absolutely impossible to get your gear oil that hot, it can never happen.

Nobody has ever seen this mythical corrosion of brass parts. Search the interweb for photos.

The best, and most thorough explanation (given by somebody who knows, rather than somebody who "thinks" they know) that I have read about this is given here:

https://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Transaxle.html

Sun May 19, 2019 1:22 am

whew, i admit i couldnt read all 60 pages but perhaps just a few questions at those who use the gl5,

i dont want to mail order or pay top dollar but im confused on the mid priced products i research will say for non-synchros trans so doesnt that mean they do have the chems that mess up the yellow parts ie synchros?

what can i just walk into a local autozone or where ever and buy it at a medium price range?

thanks

Sun May 19, 2019 3:03 am

GL-5 oils are going to have a fair amount of Sulphur in them. I lost my sense of smell due to a concussion a couple of years ago, so I can't even smell the difference any more. Many years prior to that I suffered transaxle failure on the interstate, and the smell of overheated GL5 permeated the car. YECHH. At least I had a ragtop sunroof to let it out.

Also, prior my loss of smell, Samba member 60ragtop, my long time friend Rick, tipped me as to getting GL4 in bulk, pretty cheap, at a farm and ranch store. I did so. It didn't really have that Sulphur odor. It was straight 90W though. This was from 7 years ago though, and I don't know if this still is an option.

glutamodo wrote: Here's a bit of a tip for anyone wanting straight 90W GL4 oil, (thanks Rick/60ragtop) try Farm/Ranch stores for this stuff. These are about 27 bucks for a TWO gallon jug. Sta-lube GL4 was about 10 bucks per quart when I saw it last at NAPA, so 8 quarts for 27 is a bargain in comparison. The main drawback is that 90W rating for those who drive in colder climates.

Sun May 19, 2019 7:27 am

The13bats wrote: whew, i admit i couldnt read all 60 pages but perhaps just a few questions at those who use the gl5,

i dont want to mail order or pay top dollar but im confused on the mid priced products i research will say for non-synchros trans so doesnt that mean they do have the chems that mess up the yellow parts ie synchros?

what can i just walk into a local autozone or where ever and buy it at a medium price range?

thanks

If it says for non synchro transmissions and doesn't specifically say for use with synchronized ones, that implies to me it shouldn't be used with in a synchronized box. Regardless of what a certain group here claims, a lot of manufactures of GL-5 oils recognize that their GL-5 products are not suitable for use with synchronizers.

Sun May 19, 2019 9:56 am

thanks guys, im pretty much in a mild state of shock over this whole gear lube dilemma, i guess my big enigma about it stems from no product that hails to be gl-4 compatable friendly on their label

my OCD isnt happy joy joy, i have tried to find just 80w/90 gl-4 gear oil that i can just walk in and buy without paying an arm and leg because of big branding names and i start reading the lable and get to either "GL-5" or some GL-4 and GL-5, which is fine but then yeah it will state to the effect for non-synchro transmissions and my trike with type one has synchro, and arent the synchros the yellow parts all the furor is about?

im in fl straight 90 would be okay that king lube tractor stuff a quick look appears its defunct.
im in walmart last night reading their store brand super tech gear oil, it sounded grreat nothing about synchros and even said it doesnt corrode brass or copper parts, then i get to its "gl-5" wtf?

and trying to do research about it on the net is a wealth of misinformation and parroted myths, hard to weed out when i dont know much about it anyway,

so is there a "gear oil" that is happy with synchros that i can buy at a fair price in a store in town?
i feel like there has to be but either i cant find it or im too ignorant to know which it is,

thanks again,
b

Sun May 19, 2019 10:44 am

If you have a NAPA, they sell Sta-Lube GL-4 oil.

Sun May 19, 2019 1:43 pm

and why would Pennzoil Synchromesh be bad?

Sun May 19, 2019 2:17 pm

It's rather thin. 75-80 weight roughly

Valvoline's version is a bit heavier, closer to what we need IMO

Mon May 20, 2019 2:04 am

The13bats wrote:
im in fl straight 90 would be okay that king lube tractor stuff a quick look appears its defunct. thanks again,

Actually not sure of that. I did some quick searches and well:

Okay, Okay, it's ONE DOLLAR more now. sheesh. :P

https://www.murdochs.com/products/auto/oils-lubes-...lubricant/

Mon May 20, 2019 10:12 am

when you posted king lube i was hopeful and jumped on google but walmart, amazon and ebay all listed it unavailable, and none of my local walk in parts stores or tractor supply carry it,

the retailer in your link isnt in central florida, but yeah, its a great bang for the buck and gl4.
i will check their shipping fees.

heres my next find, https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-Gear-Lubricant-SAE-80W-90-1-Gallon/16795067

its gl5 but on the bottle suggests its yellow metal safe, so ill see if feedback here says uts okay or no.

again, many thanks all.

edit:
i called valvoline tech, and he said there is no "modern" GL5 that doesnt have the nasties that do eat yellow metal and if the bottle says for non synchros then yes, it will eat the yellow metal, period.

however,
its a crapshoot time wise he said it might start damaging parts so as you notice in week or might take years but GL5 will damage yellow parts.

he said gl4/gl5 means it can be used in a diff , no yellow parts.

so im gonna go with valvoline sychromesh gl4 which is yellow metal friendly and in walk in stores.

ps, if you disagree with the tech please call him, flaming me is a pointless waste of time.

Tue May 21, 2019 7:07 am

Geez I’ve been using GL 5 for years no problems noted, most everyone around here uses it too. No doubt we are all going to hell for these transgressions. :D

Tue May 21, 2019 7:35 am

11 years ago I parked my bug, and it has GL5 lube. I always overfill abit too by jacking up only driver side when filling. Yesterday, got it running again with its new 2 liter engine and it still shifts perfectly. 2-3 shifts still perfectly under load.

So if after 11 years of a car setting outside in the elements overfilled with GL5 there is no evidence of synchro wear, is there even anything actually happening?

Tue May 21, 2019 10:24 am

try not to cherrry pick what i post, what i posted that the valvoline tech said isnt my thoughts or opinions i was just repeating what he told me so try not to take it as something personal anyone is doing against you, if you think the tech wrong take it up with valvoline for being derelict in hiring educated technicians.

I do not care at all if a person runs gl5 why would I? thats their business what i care about is what i decide to run and i did and am still doing my research on it. if you feel that strongly that the valvoline tech is wrong then you should call him and explain it to him because valvoline is a very old very respected oil company and for their techs to give out misinformation to customers if that is the case ruins their reputation and credibilty.

dont ignore the fact the tech also said that some people do run gl5 in gear boxes like ours and do not see any problems, and then believe its not doing any damage which isnt true, valvoline in this example does have chemicals that attacks the brass copper or as some call yellow metal parts over time he said some might have issues in weeks, months or go years and experence no issues, but physics do exist and gl5 does contain the ingrediants that eat at or corrode the brass copper, personally at this moment i believe both the tech is correct concerning his companies products chemicals and you guys running gl5 are correct that you are not seeing any issues yet. it can be both in that way.

gl4 is recommended for our transaxles by vw, as the vavoline tech also recommended,

me personally im not very lucky and i have a gearbox from 69 so im not going to gamble that my results will be the same as the guys who run gl5 anyway,
i have to do everything i can to keep my gearbox from needing overhauling so of course i will run a recommended gl4 gear lube, but this shouldnt be any insult or slight to guys who run and love gl5 i have no idea why some take it personal but they do.

so like i said if you want to make your case about gl5 by all means call valvoline and make that case to them, perhaps they will change what they tell customers today im calling pennsoil and going to see what their techs have to say.

thanks all,
have a good one
cheers
b

Tue May 21, 2019 11:17 am

I{'m just going with what Gary Berg (Gene's son) said to use when he rebuilt my Berg 5 tranny. He said to use Valvoline VV831 80W-90 which is GL5 and has the mt-1 rating.

I think Gary has seen more than his share of VW transaxles.

Tue May 21, 2019 11:38 am

A quote from SGKent on the Bay Window forum

"The in (It is) an instant failure is what the trans shop guys told me and that it did not go away until the synchro rings were replaced again. Mike (BigBore) said he tried flushing one several times and once whatever it is inside the GL5 gets into the moly it stays. I got the GL5 rating from the online sites that sell Sweptco 201."

This has been my experience to a "T" over the years. I am not claiming that all GL-5 oils cause problems, but without a doubt many do.

On my last rebuild from German Transaxle I filled the box with GL-4 and it shifted absolutely perfect, taking almost no force to get it into gear. Then after a few thousand miles I drained the box and refilled it with the GL-5 oil GTA was requiring for warranty purposes. The shifting immediately went to sh!t so I drained it out in only a very few miles and filled the box with Swepco 210 (or 212) that I had on hand, but the shifting did not improve so I bought some Swepco 203 and filled the box with that, but still the shifting didn't improve. The box now has 5w50 synthetic motor oil in it and the shifting is okay, but certainly not as good as it was before it got doused with GTA's required GL-5.

The 210 ended up in the transfer case of my Toyota Pickup, while the 203 ended up in the Toyota's transmission where it works way better than the thick conventional GL-5 (likely 140wt) the previous owner had filled it with.

Tue May 21, 2019 2:40 pm

The13bats wrote: gl4 is recommended for our transaxles by vw

50 years ago in 1969 GL-5 was not available. VW could only recommend GL-4.

Tue May 21, 2019 3:53 pm

vwracerdave wrote: The13bats wrote: gl4 is recommended for our transaxles by vw

50 years ago in 1969 GL-5 was not available. VW could only recommend GL-4.

And then once Mil-1-2105-b (GL-5) became available they specified it for two years and then presumable because it was causing shifting problems started specifically specifying Mil-1-2105 (GL-4) for the '74 model year and continued to do so through the end of the boxer run with the '91 Vanagon, a period of 18 years.

Tue May 21, 2019 3:54 pm

vwracerdave wrote: The13bats wrote: gl4 is recommended for our transaxles by vw

50 years ago in 1969 GL-5 was not available. VW could only recommend GL-4.
VW also recommended 91 RON leaded fuel and SD rated 30W oil.

Tue May 21, 2019 4:34 pm

this is not the least bit personal to me, , granted gl5 wasnt around when vw said use gl4 it doesnt make gl5 safe to use, a lot of stuff wasnt around in 69 that we have today that i wouldnt run in my trans gl5 didnt replace gl4 gl5 is another product for something.

as far as leaded higher oc fuel was recommended back then too, well, im also a corvette person and mine a 69 big block lack of lead in fuel will ruin the valves etc, no one argues that its well known but thats why different parts are used in old lead gas engine rebuilds so that they can run new lead free fuels, i know years back guys used additives, my engine is hopped up so its not a problem. ( and i know about octane and higher comp too )

how about this ancedote,

fireworks will have on the label "do not hold in hand" most people dont but we all have seen that cat who yells "hey yall watch this" and lights some explosive holding it and most times hes okay, but if he does this daily at some point he will get hurt, this is my mindset on running gl5, the people who make it say not to, so i wont. im just not lucky.

no question gl5 will work and it might last a long time but it will at some point cause the damage its manufactures say it will, i just cant risk that,

now, if i bought a rebuilt gearbox and the builder said run gl5 i would want in writing that he stands behind the damage running gl5 can cause so if it happens he pays for it not me,
and i would only hope if the gl5 causes danage the builder wouldnt try to blame something else,

so i plan to use 85w/90 hypoid gl4 sta-lube, im hunting the best price on a gallon, and cant wait to get her going again

and again, i do not mean or direct any of my opinions as insults to gl5 guys, i respect your choice, try to respect mine.

thanks
cheers
b

Tue May 21, 2019 4:49 pm

The13bats wrote: so i plan to use 85w/90 hypoid gl4 sta-lube, im hunting the best price on a gallon, and cant wait to get her going again

I haven't bought any in a while but I either got it from the local NAPA or from Amazon.

Amazon search gave me this:
https://www.amazon.com/CRC-Sta-Lube-SL24239-Multi-Purpose-Hypoid/dp/B000M8RYMC/

Having the little hand pump that screws on top is nice too.
You can see it listed on the Amazon "People bought this too" listings they have on that item above.
I don't have the one they list there but I do have one of those pumps