TheSamba.com :: View topic - Alternative aircooled engines? (Lycoming, Wisconsin, ZAZ?)

Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:01 am

So there's a bunch of people doing alternative engine swaps... the Mazda rotary, anything Subaru, etc, etc. But for those sticking with air-cooled engines, Corvair and Porsche are the only non-VW swaps you ever hear about.

But there's a huge number of "alternative" air-cooled engines out there! Has anyone ever tried something, well, different?

A few ideas of what I'm talking about:

Wisconsin V465D

A cast-iron V4 industrial engine. Forged crank and aluminum pistons. 530lbs (2x a Beetle engine), but it makes 65.9 HP and 115.3 ft-lbs at 3,000 RPM. It's making 41.6 HP and 136.6 ft-lbs at only 1600 RPM!! These things run stump grinders, pumps, etc, so durability isn't an issue. I imagine you could turbocharge it to some pretty crazy power levels before you started having problems.

Lycoming (any number of 'em)

Lycoming started off making auto engines (Cord, Auburn, Duesenberg), and has a wide selection of 4 and 6 cylinder aircraft engines out now. Low weight, high reliability, and good availability at reasonable cost for engines with high hours (too high for further aircraft use).

Tatra T603

A Czech-made beast of an engine - an aircooled V8. Probably too big for a rear-engine setup, but if it fits in a motorcycle, it could fit in a car! It doesn't look much bigger than a Corvair flat-6...

ZAZ / MeMZ 968

A compact air-cooled V4 from Ukraine, used in the Russian Zaporozhet vehicles. 42 HP, 51 ft-lbs from a 1.2L engine.
It fits in a trike, so it should fit in a VW!

Franklin

A classic aircooled engine company, for both autos and aviation, in a variety of configurations.

Now, there are many others not specifically listed... Continental, Rotax, Deutz, Citroen, Harley Davidson, Kohler, Pinz, etc, etc... Aero, Industrial, Motorcycle, or other automotive- Has anyone heard of anyone using anything decisively "different" but still air-cooled??

- David

Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:38 am

You know what would be wild? A Bug with either a Citroen 2CV engine, or a Steyr-Puch 2 cylinder! Both are 2 cyl, horiz opposed engines, the Steyr-Puch being related to the Fiat 500 inline twin. I bet you could get some retarded mileage with the right gearing...

Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:26 am

I can remember reading a hot vw magazine article in 68 or 69 involving a Vulcan v4 engine that had been installed in a manx buggy.don't know the maker of that engine,but they loved it!possible back issue search on mag website?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:03 pm

but is the cost comparable? aircraft engines are very reliable but very expensive.

Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:48 pm

miniman82-
Right on. It might be a little slow to get up to speed, but you could get some crazy fuel economy with a smaller engine. A small electric motor along side it for some low-end oomph, and you could have a nice little hybrid on your hands. 8)

pikeman48-
I know you can order back-issues, I don't know about searching though... The motorcycle engines sometimes have an additional transmission to deal with, but it's not an impossible obstacle by any means.

efi67vw-
It might not be cost comparable... but it might have other benefits. It might be efficiency, it might be power, or it might be reliability. Maybe even a combination of those.

The VW engines are great engines, but they do require their regular maintenance. Once you're beyond stock, the more power you pull out of 'em, the shorter the fuse gets.... and when you consider the cost of TWO engines, the alternatives aren't quite so expensive! :wink:

- David

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:30 pm

While I would gladly stuff a Lycoming O-360 into the back of my vehicles, I think the main problem (after cost) is coming up with an effective cooling system now that there isn't a propeller attached. I'd love to see somebody with some motivation use a Deutz or Wisconsin just for the hell of it. Might have to go to STF to find that brave soul. :lol:

The most cost-effective setup for mileage (in my mind) would be to buy/build a 40HP, use a tiny carb (like a 28PCI or 26VFIS), and intentionally drive slower.

BTW, a fun fact is that after the Franklin car company went belly-up, Preston Tucker bought them out and used their flat-6 engine (converted to a waterboxer design) for his short-lived Tucker Torpedos! ;)

Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:57 pm

http://www.neander-motors.com/company/index_en.php ??

sounds good, and just what i am after....air cooled diesel for the bug and or 411...

Yes, most people think the idea is insane...

Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:28 pm

Yeah, don't forget the Franklin and it's aircooled engine...

The issue with the aircraft engines is the fact that they are set up to run a prop on the FRONT of the engine, so the thrust bearings are on the opposite end of the engine, they also don't have a bellhouse to mount to the tranny..

But thats not stopping me from slapping one into a Bay window bus... (540CI)

It also won't be stock as cam, head work and a CR boost are underway.

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:27 pm

Towel Rail wrote: The most cost-effective setup for mileage (in my mind) would be to buy/build a 40HP, use a tiny carb (like a 28PCI or 26VFIS), and intentionally drive slower.

X2. Maybe do a few mods to increase service intervals.

What about something like this?

http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/productdetail.jsp?engnID=175660

Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:02 pm

I've seen a few Harley powered trikes, but that probably wouldn't work in a full bodied car, not enough air flow.

How about a deutz air cooled diesel?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:52 pm

Not only are aircraft parts way more expensive than vw's, aircraft eingines usually have a redline of 2500 RPM's or so, and are made to be run at constant power settings, not reved up and down all the time like a car engine. You could probably get away with it if it was just going to be crusing on the highway at a constant RPM, and the gearing was set up to be in line with the eninge power band, but not for around town driving.

Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:42 pm

a good 6 cly engine thats air/oil cooled that puts out that much hp would be nice
but yes affordability does play a factor
the later tatras had air cooled v8s that push 165+hp
8)
but to find one
and then parts

whoo :!:

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:30 am

seen a tatra diesel v8 for sale in canada 5k canadian....

:D ideas ideas....

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:21 pm

I have seen deutz cylinders grafted onto VW engines to make BIG power, but I would love to see a deutz diesel conversion...heavy as snot though...can you say suitcase weights on the front, 30mm torsion bars, and bent trailing arms? :lol:

Seriously though, it would be really sweet. I love air cooled diesels.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:28 pm

I was curious of an all electric setup in something like a bug or thing or even a ghia. I have seen several motorcycles built as an all electric setup so surely a small electric engine could work well in a vw or has that already been done and I missed it.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:52 pm

This is obscene, and I love it.

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:27 am

You can easily fabricate Any rolling metal chassis/frame around Any engine tho..

Lets see it atleast backing up and taking off under its own power...

But hell yes that thing is Mmmmmm...

Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:49 am

sharkskinman wrote: You can easily fabricate Any rolling metal chassis/frame around Any engine tho..

Lets see it atleast backing up and taking off under its own power...

But hell yes that thing is Mmmmmm...

Maybe you didn't watch all of the videos of the car?

I have to agree with 71_1302. It's OBSCENE, and I LOVE it! =D>

(Though I do worry a bit about the cooling. I also wonder if the tires are even rated high enough to carry the weight of the engine, let alone the added weight of the car and driver! :shock: )

And, did you notice that the driver was wearing a crash helmet? :?

:lol:

Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:42 pm

Cooling would definitely be an issue without a healthy dose of creative engineering. A radial engine could be fitted with an engine-width fan, ducting, and a chain drive to the transmission. It would be so much easier, safer, and more efficient to install a flat four or six. I still like the radial-engined Gogomobil, though. :twisted:

Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:58 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGeSIM_8BHY