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Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:20 am

Is anyone useing gapeless second rings on street motors? If so worth the money ect....

Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:29 am

If you've done your research on the theory of piston ring flutter you'll never use a 2nd gapless ring.

I'll never spend money on a gapless 2nd.

Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:35 am

Alan_U wrote: If you've done your research on the theory of piston ring flutter you'll never use a 2nd gapless ring.

I'll never spend money on a gapless 2nd.

Is that your opinion on just street engines or racing engines too?

Got any links?

Not trying to diss your opinion but if that were the case, Total Seal and Childs & Alberts would not be in the gapless ring business.

Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:28 pm

Gapless rings give great static compression and leakdown readings. But, the engine is not a static object. On the upstroke of the pistin, pressure builds up between the first and second ring. This pressure causes the top ring to come off it's seat momentarily stop sealing. Once the pressure between teh two equalizes, the top ring settles back down till pressure builds again and it comes off it's seat etc etc, hence the "fluttering" top ring. In other words, you won't gain any dynamic compression from teh total seal ring, and you'll probably actually lose some of it. The companys still being in business says NOTHING about their product. Empi and GEX are still in business too...

Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:33 pm

Doesn't heat expansion and contraction also have a hand in the need for some gap? I am not about to find out at the expense of my engine. I'll take some gap with my fries, thankyouverymuch.

Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:24 pm

Bugman Jeff wrote: Gapless rings give great static compression and leakdown readings. But, the engine is not a static object. On the upstroke of the pistin, pressure builds up between the first and second ring. This pressure causes the top ring to come off it's seat momentarily stop sealing. Once the pressure between teh two equalizes, the top ring settles back down till pressure builds again and it comes off it's seat etc etc, hence the "fluttering" top ring. In other words, you won't gain any dynamic compression from teh total seal ring, and you'll probably actually lose some of it. The companys still being in business says NOTHING about their product. Empi and GEX are still in business too...

Four questions:

1) How in the world did someone see or measure this flutter happening?

2) Where does the pressure go to allow the top ring to set back down?

3) Does this mean that a leaky second ring is a good thing?

4) What size gap in relation to the top ring gap, should the 2nd ring have?

Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:57 pm

I had the full set on my engine. They lost the spring in them due to high pressure and heat I guess . I had a lot of crank case pressure so I changed them out for stock rings and I have not had any problem since. there were heat issues as i said. but I did not see or feel any loss with the stock rings. My engine builder said after the first set of total seal rings , Dont use them on a vw due to flutter and dont waste money on second rings. . drag racing engines ok. 0 to 60 faster than you can say holy crap !

PS the gaps were not lined up. they just lost the spring in them.

Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:57 pm

[quote="turboblue"] Alan_U wrote: Not trying to diss your opinion but if that were the case, Total Seal and Childs & Alberts would not be in the gapless ring business.

I've never been given an explanation why a gapless topring cannot be used with our acvw application. If so that would be better "if" it was suppose to work in a flat4.

Having a 2nd ring holding better compression than the 1st is not a good thing. Also I've found a TS ring to be a bitch to seat properly. I am not the only one observing this. You'll hear more stubborn seating with TS 2nd ring than any other rings.

Turboblue, no diss taken. If you ever read hardcore forums with guys making real power you'll hear this from time to time from the best of the best.

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:21 am

After reading this it is obvious that stock rings are the way to go for street applications,plus alot cheaper and easier to seat. thanks

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:16 am

Is the top ring fluttering because the 2nd ring is sealing too well or not well enough? With the reports of the total seal ring being hard to seat and causing excessive blowby, it sounds like lack of sealing is the cause. Is this true?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:21 am

RockNbus wrote: Is the top ring fluttering because the 2nd ring is sealing too well or not well enough? With the reports of the total seal ring being hard to seat and causing excessive blowby, it sounds like lack of sealing is the cause. Is this true?

2nd ring holds compression better so now theres pressure between the top and 2nd ring. there is a very high chance of flutter.

I've heard a professional sunnin hone will help breakin of the TS ring. I know I wont ever go through the headaches of puking oil from the back of the crank pulley.

Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:53 am

So blowby is what is used to eliminate the ring flutter? I have always thought blowby was a bad thing. Wouldn't it make more sense to fix the top ring so it wouldn't flutter if the 2nd ring seals to well?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:04 am

I read some where that the 2nd ring is a oil scraping ring and has a / angle on it . Making it not for holding compression. the top rings duty is for holding the compression not the second. blow by is not good. Unless you Drag racing , I dont think you will see any benefit of the total seal rings as they are for helping in the tenths of seconds. But what do I know??? I just read the stuff here.

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:08 am

I just found these two sites that make for interesting reading:

http://www.idavette.net/hib/02ls6/page5.htm

http://www.totalseal.com/flutter.html

Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:00 pm

Alan_U wrote: TS ring to be a bitch to seat properly. I am not the only one observing this. You'll hear more stubborn seating with TS 2nd ring than any other rings.

If you ever read hardcore forums with guys making real power you'll hear this from time to time from the best of the best.

Total Seal rings have issues all around, but just because their rings are junk doesn't mean that all gapless rings are going to cause problems. I've never seen a problem using the Childs & Albert Z Gap 2nd rings & we've got quite a few engines running them. In fact, we insist on using them for our high HP motors. :D Hey Alan - does 400-500 HP in a VW qualify as "real power" ?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:34 pm

Ann Mezger wrote: Alan_U wrote: TS ring to be a bitch to seat properly. I am not the only one observing this. You'll hear more stubborn seating with TS 2nd ring than any other rings.

If you ever read hardcore forums with guys making real power you'll hear this from time to time from the best of the best.

Total Seal rings have issues all around, but just because their rings are junk doesn't mean that all gapless rings are going to cause problems. I've never seen a problem using the Childs & Albert Z Gap 2nd rings & we've got quite a few engines running them. In fact, we insist on using them for our high HP motors. :D Hey Alan - does 400-500 HP in a VW qualify as "real power" ?

Darren Morgan at Reher Morrison has commented on 2nd ring flutter and disuades the use of gapless 2nd rings. I've read this on some articles and also high peformance engine building forums.

for some hardcore setups people run real loose ring specs with gasports instead of gapless setups.

I absolutely hate TS rings because you'll commonly see the 2nd gapless ring turn and have even more of a ring gap than a "regular conventional" ring.

Ann 400-500 is alot of HP. Have you ever had issues using conventional rings with your turbo setups?? or Nitrous??

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:45 pm

Gapless rings are worthless.
Especially on the second ring.

The second ring needs a large gap, as mentioned above, to keep the top ring sealed.

Here more from people who know more then we ever will about rings, you can see the small gap doesn't matter much anyway.

http://kb-silvolite.com/index2.php

Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:19 am

Alan_U wrote:
Ann 400-500 is alot of HP. Have you ever had issues using conventional rings with your turbo setups?? or Nitrous??

We've never had any issues with pistons rings, whether it be in a normally aspirated engine, turbo engine, or an engine running nitrous. Considering that we tear the engines down for preventive maintenence & inspections rather than wait until something goes horribly wrong, we'd see first hand if there was an issue & the problem (had there been any) would be corrected. I read a lot of stuff everyday from various sources, but that doesn't mean it's right. What I credit with validity is what I see with my own eyes.

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:46 pm

I have experimented with gapless top rings (used total seal beacuse they are less than a mile from my house) as well as second rings. I even had a custom set of J E pistons done with gas ports. I now have a turbo motor (600 hp from Vintage Performance) using the childs and Albert Z gap rings. In all of the motors used I had 1/2" breather lines from valve covers as well as from the fuel pump block off, and had NO oil leak from behind the crank pulley or accumelate in the breather box. motors all made 200 plus HP N/A and with the exception of my VP turbo motor sprayed at least a 100 hp shot of N20 on them.

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:39 pm

The information in the first link condradicts the info from the second.

The fist says ring fluter happens at rpm as low as 4000 and the second says 8000.

But it not so much the rpm, it the pressure escaping that causes the ring to flutter or vibrate, like a reed on a saxophone.

The first link is dead on, the second is Total seal trying to cover there butts.

RockNbus wrote: I just found these two sites that make for interesting reading:

http://www.idavette.net/hib/02ls6/page5.htm

http://www.totalseal.com/flutter.html