TheSamba.com :: View topic

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:30 pm

OK--I'm looking for some real facts from someone who has ACTUALLY INSTALLED and RUN a Porsche style fan housing/alternator kit on a type 1 engine. I've gotten a LOT of negative answers about these--
"there are no baffles inside the shroud", or "they not placed correctly", "the doghouse fan/cooler works way better", etc. blah blah blah--these are all coming from the "experts"--who, when pressed admit they have never even touched a kit much less installed one!

So, before I spend a buch of dollars--I'd like to hear from the guys who have some real-world EXPERIENCE with these kits. I am seeing a LOT of them in the mags--what is the real deal?!!!

any help MOST appreciated.

cheers...... :!:

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:46 pm

Try reading this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153387

Jake Raby has run tests that ave shown that the 911 style shroud cools two cylinders too much and the other two not enough.

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:48 pm

I think you can get great info either from Rabys Aircooled Technology or Fat Performance

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:17 pm

Thanks--I've been to both Raby's site and FAT. Jake is selling his fan shroud setup--so he's biased against the 911 kits, in my opinion. His kits seem to work very well--which is fine. I did not see WHICH 911 kit he tested--Bergmann? CSP? Sharpbuilt? etc.

From what I have seen, FAT sells kits for super hi perf. engines for race applications--i.e. buggies, drag cars, etc --not for street use where longetivity is the main concern.

So-I'm still not convinced by anyone's true assesment of the 911 shroud kit situation.
Bergmann and Sharpbuilt seem to be the "best"--although it's hard to get any "real" info on these. How about a spec sheet/cutaway view which explains/shows the internal baffles, etc? This is what we need to see/understand--and would explain the "hot/cold' side of the engine situation--etc.

I'm seriously considering one of the kits and I want to know--again--from someone who has actually purchased, installed, and run one (or better yet a bunch of them).

thanks for the replies--anyone else care to pipe in?

cheers..... :?:

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:55 pm

go ask on the germanlook.com forum. lots of people using them there, one guy sandeep has done a bunch of testing on his.

http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5973

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:07 pm

scott,

thanks for the link to that thread--exactly the kind of stuff i need to know.
i also did not know jake was that deep into the 911 shrouds--i'd love to see him develop one. I'm sure it would run cool and he'd sell a billion of them!

thanks again.

cheers and happy vw-ing!

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:41 pm

MY 72 bus has 1835 (69x92 thin cylinder) and 911fan, very bad combo as people says 12000miles so far with no problem bus in indonesia 28'C-32'C/84F-91F temp.external oil cooler w electric fan helps oil temp but I have no CHT so cant tell the temp
my next engine 78x90,5 with standard fan or mayb DTM

Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:24 pm

No bias at all..
Call anyone else and ask for data on their systems.. They don't have ANY, not a damn bit. Their idea of development is to bolt it on, make it look good and sell it, everyone has the common misconcetion that if it cools a 911 engine is HAS to cool a 4 cylinder and that couldn't be farther from the truth, nothing about the engines are the same...
Not to mention the HP differences between the systems..... HUGE!

If you send me a written request via mail I'll send you back 34 pages of data and you can make the desision yourself...

Go to Germanlook.com and look at the work that Sandeep did to his 911 fan to get adequate performance from it. He used a datalogger similar to mine for the results..

Then go to www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry and you can see data logs from a 3,450 mile R&D trip I did earlier this year, open the pages and read- data doesn't lie- especially when you are uploading it directly to the net as you drive...

BTW_ I TESTED ALL 911 shrouds, except the unit made by Klaus in Germany. He doesn't sell them in the states, but I have recently scored one to test and will do that as soon as warm weather returns..

The common issue with every 911 system I tested was the fact that they have huge temperature delta issues between all 4 cylinders, thats hell on expansion and contraction. I have seen 200F difference between the 4 cylinders of an engine with one particular system.....

I would make a 911 system that would work, but with the amount of time that it would take to make it work, no one could afford it.. Plus, it would be copied within 3 months and I'd probably end up in jail for cutting the bastards balls off that copied my work!!

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:15 pm

Jake,

Thanks for the reply. I realize you have done extensive testing.
Saw Sandeep's thread--way cool, and hats off to him for all the work!
But I think the problem is that everyone is taking someone else's shroud and trying to modify it.

All of these kits are designed using "Function Following Form"--it should be the other way around. The setup will still look and sound great, after the inside part of the shroud does its job of equally cooling the cylinders.
For a truly effective and successful Porsche style kit--someone needs to engineer a 911 style shroud from scratch--with 3D modeling software like Inventor from Autodesk. It needs internal baffling to direct air to the correct locations to equally cool all cylinders.
If Porsche can make one work for a 911 w/ 6 cylinders, then this concept can work for the 4 cyl. VW. I'm not sure anyone has spent much time disecting the Porsche shroud--looking at the actual engineering drawings
showing plan, elevation and section views--to see how the internals are directing the air. I know the 911 and VW engines are vastly different--but then again they are also very similar in a lot of ways!
(I own a 3.2 Carrera as well as (2) Ghias, a '59 Beetle, my '69 Westy, a street legal rail buggy, and a Boxster Tip.) So I know how the Porsches work and how the VWs work--it's a matter of someone investing in extensive R&D--maybe even consulting with Porsche.(?!) I don't know if the market would support this--even if you sold a huge amount of 911 shroud kits.

You are correct--the Bergmann (no offense Bernie) type kits are sold primarily for looks and the 911 fan sound--not for practicality. (And the $1300 price tag is rediculous! )

I've also had another thought on this recently--the shop who just installed my 2027 Scat engine in the Westy had a type 547 Carrera engine on the bench--I was looking at that fan setup and thought-why doesn't someone
start with that as a mold (instead of the 911 shroud) to make a Porsche style kit? It was originally designed for the 4 cam 4 cyl. engine--don't know if this would work for Type 1 or 4s--just a thought. I know the 547 engines are really rare and expensive--so it might be a bit difficult to use one as a "test" or template. The fan/alternator would also have to be a knock off--as getting original parts would be out of the question. Has anyone tried this approach?

cheers.....

Mon May 24, 2010 6:50 pm

I know this is old thread, but I've heard that the horizontal shroud cools evenly but to get one is like winning the lottery..
I've been looking to see who makes them still but no luck :cry:

Tue May 25, 2010 7:51 am

cbcarch wrote: someone needs to engineer a 911 style shroud from scratch--with 3D modeling software like Inventor from Autodesk. ...

To the contrary. It just needs someone to tackle it that has the design skills and abilities. There was life before the PC.

Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:55 pm

Desertbusman wrote: cbcarch wrote: someone needs to engineer a 911 style shroud from scratch--with 3D modeling software like Inventor from Autodesk. ...

To the contrary. It just needs someone to tackle it that has the design skills and abilities. There was life before the PC.

there was an abacus before an electronic calculator and hand drills before power drills too.. why not take advantage of modern technology and use everything available to your advantage?