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Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:46 am

I miss having a fast car. I built the 1776, as it was my first VW, and I wanted reliability, and didn't know it'd be so slow...now that my car has about 6k miles, I'm considering a AJ Sims under decklid turbo setup. I figured upgrading my exhaust, and Carb setup wouldn't be that much less, so why not go turbo? $2200 seems fair. Why does everybody go with big engines rather than turbos? I just bought a Wright gearbox with 4.12 RP,and .82-4th. Should I just sell my engine, and go big CC, or try the turbo setup? I live in Pa, hits 100 at most, and the car is my daily driver, and I don't want to go with anything higher than 93 octane. Will his turbo setup work under my stock decklid, or do I need standoffs? They look corny, and leaves and crap will get inside my engine. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Btw, it's a '65 beetle hardtop.

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:25 am

Not exactly on subject, but your 1776 shouldn't be to slow. A properly tuned stock 1600 has some kick.

Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:43 am

The choice between displacement & power adders is as varied as underwear choice ........... there is no 1 answer that fits everybody. Some people like large displacement engines with big turbos :D check this thread javascript:ol('http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1763344#1763344'); Air-cooled VW's are not like Hondas where you can simply bolt on some extra HP & call it good. There are quite a few things that need to be considered if you want the engine to 1) be reliable and 2) have maximum performance or "proper" performance for the enhancement being applied. Compression, Cam Lift, Valve strength, Rod Bolts, etc. all need to be considered & upgraded or corrected before the engine is ready for boost. Unless you built the motor for the turbo ahead of time, you're not going to be happy with the performance or get away with a $2200 done budget. The deck lid stand-off gives you extra air flow which is very important in an air-cooled engine. There are ways to make a turbo fit under a decklid & get extra air in the engine compartment, but that costs extra. If you want to stay with 93 octane, you'll have to limit the amount of boost to 6 lbs. or less.
Aside from that, I have concerns about your starting point engine. Although a 1776cc isn't a screamer, it shouldn't be described as "slow" & down on HP. You may have some issues with head flow that would benefit from your spending spree more than slapping on a winky turbo.

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:38 am

Quote: Unless you built the motor for the turbo ahead of time, you're not going to be happy with the performance or get away with a $2200 done budget.

Thats an excellent point, Ann.

A big misconception is a power adder can be installed without the necessity of upgrades that go hand in hand with it. If that is done the power adder has become an engine killer thats waiting to find the weak link that it will use as a weapon to take the smil off your face.

The reason why I didn't work with Turbos very much in the past few years is because they add more of a tuning challenge to the engine and people that don't thoroughly understand how to tune an aircooled engine very well have their challenges tripled with Turbo.

For instance an engine that runs lean N/A or has overadvanced timing will take quite a bit of mistuning and keep on ticking, add a Turbo and the foregiving nature is gone forever.

Turbos are GREAT and as technology increases they are getting easier to use. I still believe that Turbos should be tackled only after the user is a competent N/A tuner and has a few builds under his belt. Newbies and Turbos are a lethal combination..

As far as making a great Turnbo engine:
I have found that a moderate engine displacement built with the correct components, coupled to a moderate sized Turbo is the best of both worlds. Adding these btwo moderately tuned components generally gives the best of all the worlds while making serious power.

Good luck!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:41 am

think in terms of a chevy V-8 for a minute.

Do you want the small block or the big block. There are performance ad on 's for both but the feel is different.

With a 1776 to maximise power you have to spin it up a bit and this makes heat. More so with turbo.

With a large CC that feeling of power can be mild and controlable and right there.

100mph is fast enough for street bug. You spend to much time up there and your going to eventually get yourself in trouble.

What you consideer enough power and what the next guy considers enough power will be personal always vary.

Most people hate spend the money but something like a Berg 5 speed close ratio tranny would really help wake things up.

I run a close ratio on the sand, 3:10, 2:35, 1:72, 1:31 I've run everything from 1776, 2110, 2276 behind it. It makes more difference having the close ratio to keep you in the power band than anything else.

The 2276 doesn't really shine until you get on a steep hill wiht two people in it.

There all fun. I'm thinking of trying a turbo next myslef just for the experience.

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:04 pm

:shock: Define kick, I love VWs, but a stock 1600 is about as slow as they get.

renderit wrote: Not exactly on subject, but your 1776 shouldn't be to slow. A properly tuned stock 1600 has some kick.

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:35 pm

James,

I take it you have never driven a car with the original 25hp engine have you? :D

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:14 pm

I'm with James, the term "kick" isn't something that would come up in my description of a 1600cc.

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:53 pm

I own an 86 Buick Grand National, which is why I'm into the turbo idea. I've owned bigblock Olds 442's, Impala SS's, and even a 2001 Integra Type R (195hp@8600rpm stock 1.8L n/a!) My bug ran an 18, at the track. It's a Scat 1776 setup with the c/w crank,rods, 1:25 lifters, P&P heads, Weber Progressive, C45 camshaft, S/S Manley Valves, New Brazil Heads & Block. The plugs are tan, and the car gets 25mpg. I think it's tuned properly, it's just slow. I'm told Low budget is the only under decklid system made, are there others? I'm not looking to make it a racecar, I'd be happy if it was good for low-mid 14's, which I know is not possible with a n/a 1776. Just want to scare a few Mustangs and Vtec cars around town. Maybe, even one of these new so-called "Rabbits"..Sorry, I'm 27, and haven't grown up yet :D Plus, I want to install a roll cage, as how cool would it be to have Burberry Interior and rollcage? I can't do that if I get beat by crazed soccer moms in Dodge Caravans at redlights though. Thanx for all the replies so far :!:

Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:14 pm

newtownhood wrote: I'm not looking to make it a racecar, I'd be happy if it was good for low-mid 14's, which I know is not possible with a n/a 1776. Just want to scare a few Mustangs and Vtec cars around town.

I know where you are coming from and I am facing a similar dilemma myself, so I will be interested in what other people say. I recently bought a Dune Buggy, and my daily driver is a 99 Mustang Cobra. Soon after I got the buggy, it lots all oil pressure and seized some bearings. So, I am contemplating what rebuild to do. Since my buggy is my project car now, my first goal is to make it at least as fast as my daily driver. :wink:

I agree with Jake's approach (master NA tuning before foing Forced Induction). That's what I've done in the past with my other project cars. My current plan is to rebuild the 1835cc in my buggy now cheaply just to get it running so that I can drive it and enjoy it. Then, on the side I will be building a big displacement motor (probably 2332cc with all the bells and whistles) and build it so that it will run well NA, and I will have the option to put a small turbo on it at a later time.

Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:15 pm

dont turbo it. if it wasnt built for a turbo, surely it wont handle the turbo. i have a turboed 1776, i love it. i built the engine ground up with turbo in mind so it will withstand the abuse. its not a fun daily driver, too much of a "race" car. in the past 2 months my engine has been out of the car 3 times along with the tranny once. On the other hand you could dissasemble your existing engine and do some upgrades to make it reliable. if you wanna know some specifics, pm me, ill be happy to answer questions.

Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:17 am

What about my setup is weak that I would need to upgrade if I decided to go turbo? I'm not the type of person that will thrash the car constantly, or when it's ice cold. I run Mobil 1 in everything I own, and I change the oil in my bug about every 2K miles. I've been working on cars since I was 4yrs old (helped dad restore a Chevy ElCabondo). I'm just looking at the Pros and Cons of owning a Turbo car, vs. a Big CC motor. Does anybody know AJ Simms, that can verify his car doesn't have problems, or how well it runs? 14.19 on a stock engine/trans on street tires is pretty impressive for a '72 "1600DP", and thats what got me into the turbo idea. Anybody run a BIG engined bug daily driver, that takes 93 Octane, doesn't overheat in 100 degree weather, has heat, runs 14's, and doesn't break down? This is my one last splurge before I buy my house, and grow up. I want to do it right this time, and not ask "what if?" like I have already done with my current 1776. I'm selling a Honda to fund this idea :!:

Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:29 am

Between what you've given for specs and the goals you've listed as wanting heat, daily driver, burn 93 octane, doesn't over heat, runs 14's & doesn't break down, I can tell you that selling a Honda isn't going to cover the cost of building that combination. In addition to that, you can't just throw a turbo on & get a magic answer. As I said before, there is room for improvement in your cyl. heads. Spend the $ there & get some decent carburetors. You will be amazed at the difference that alone can make.

Oh, and stop putting Mobil 1 in your air-cooled VW. :roll:

Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:06 am

newtownhood wrote: What about my setup is weak that I would need to upgrade if I decided to go turbo?

What kind of rods are in your motor and with what kind of rod bolts? Is your counterweighted crank one that is a stocker with the counterweights welded on, or was it a one-piece forged unit? If you have a forged CW crank with forged rods, good rod bolts and forged pistons (along with your new case), then I don't see a weakness in your motor in order to put a turbo with low boost (less than 7-8 psi) on it.

Also, more info concerning your current compression ratio would really help as well. You might need to install some cylinder shims to drop it down a bit.

The way I see it is that compared to any other car out there, parts for these cars are so cheap and the motors are so simple that if something does go catastrophically wrong, I can rebuild an entire longblock from scratch for less than it would cost for cams and a P&P intake manifold for my Cobra.

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:12 am

Dingleweed wrote: What kind of rods are in your motor and with what kind of rod bolts? Is your counterweighted crank one that is a stocker with the counterweights welded on, or was it a one-piece forged unit? If you have a forged CW crank with forged rods, good rod bolts and forged pistons (along with your new case), then I don't see a weakness in your motor in order to put a turbo with low boost (less than 7-8 psi) on it.

this is a funny statement. I made almost 300 hp with a turbocharged 1915 using a DMS welded C/W crank, stock rods and engle 120 cam compression was at 9:1 and still got 24 mpg while being able to run 11.40 1/4 mile times.

I am currently using a DNS fullcircle welded crank in my 2332 and it make well over 550 hp. There is nothing wrong with using a welded crankas long as it comes from DMS and they know what your aplication is. Like any manufacturer they have some "econo" cranks that are not as good and can break

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:35 am

Dingleweed wrote: Is your counterweighted crank one that is a stocker with the counterweights welded on, or was it a one-piece forged unit? If you have a forged CW crank with forged rods, good rod bolts and forged pistons (along with your new case), then I don't see a weakness in your motor in order to put a turbo with low boost (less than 7-8 psi) on it.

The way I see it is that compared to any other car out there, parts for these cars are so cheap and the motors are so simple that if something does go catastrophically wrong, I can rebuild an entire longblock from scratch for less than it would cost for cams and a P&P intake manifold for my Cobra.

I've got a DMS full circle counterweighted crank that earned the nickname "Old Reliable" after 6.5 years in a turbo charged 2276cc making over 500HP (hammered on the street) without a single issue. :lol:

Knowing what it costs to build VW engines & having experience with ALL forms of engines & costs involved, I've got to ask ................. what is your definition of "cheap"?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:48 am

Years ago I used to run a (budget) 2110 that ran 14.0's on pump gas in a full body car.
It had a CB crank, CB stroker rods, mahle pistons/cyls, engle k-8, 8:1 comp., mildly ported "041" heads w/ 36mm exhaust valves added, heater boxes with an 1 1/2"header, and dual 40 Dell's.
It averaged 23-25 mpg with over 25K miles on it.

I took the same engine, bumped up the compression to 9:1 and added a 1-5/8" merged header, ran pump gas and put it in a 1600lb. car with close ratio trans and ran 13.1's consistantly for several seasons without any failures to any parts.

Later took the engine, replaced the bearings and added 92's, lowered comp. back to 8:1 and to this day it resides in a '64 'vert street car.
It's been around 14 yrs. now. Same heads, same crank, same rods, same cam, ect.

Now for your 1776.
Why not spend your $2200 upgading to a larger displacement engine. A 2110 will give you the perf your looking for AND the reliability you need.

Realistically, if you can assemble it yourself, your going to end up spending about $3500-$4000 in todays prices. Carbs and heads will be your big dollar items.

In the long run, especially if your going to drive the car regularly, you'll be mcuh happier with this route.

Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:26 am

Ann Mezger wrote: There are quite a few things that need to be considered if you want the engine to 1) be reliable and 2) have maximum performance or "proper" performance for the enhancement being applied. Compression, Cam Lift, Valve strength, Rod Bolts, etc. all need to be considered & upgraded or corrected before the engine is ready for boost. Unless you built the motor for the turbo ahead of time, you're not going to be happy with the performance or get away with a $2200 done budget.

I have concerns about your starting point engine. Although a 1776cc isn't a screamer, it shouldn't be described as "slow" & down on HP. You may have some issues with head flow that would benefit from your spending spree more than slapping on a winky turbo.

I also have a concerns about your 1776 being slow. I recently built a 1776 for a customer that absolutely screamed. (10.5:1 aspirated Engle 130 40X35.5 ported heads(39cc .060deck), 44IDF's, DMS 69mmC/W,resized rods...)

Take a look at your combo and post what you have then maybe some of the experienced people here can guide you in the right direction.

My experience with a turboed 1776 is that you CAN have a fast daily driver. I had a 1776 turbo in my 67 for 3 years. Rajay FB25, 40DCOE, Perf Tech 40X35.5 Stage 5's, Engle 110, Berg 69mmCW, Rimco Super rods, 7.3:1... I would run up to 10psi on the street with 15psi at the strip. I had the kit modified (read $$$) to fit under the deck lid with all the stock sheet metal.

The car would get about 18-24mpg (10mpg on constant boost) combined and would turn anywhere from 13.5 - 12.20 in the 1/4mile. This was in 1985-1988. I went with a 10.5:1 2110cc (Gary Berg copy engine) after that.

A 1776 can be fast but, just slapping on a turbo kit (anyone's kit) is not best way to increase power.

Ann sums it up well. A "purpose built" engine will deliver the results you are looking for be it turbo or aspirated.

Just Me

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:58 am

Ann Mezger wrote:
Knowing what it costs to build VW engines & having experience with ALL forms of engines & costs involved, I've got to ask ................. what is your definition of "cheap"?

Unfortunately, the 32 valve Cobra motors are not cheap to build up. The options that I was looking into (more like wanted but refused to shell out that kind of money) for upgrading my daily driver were:

Ford Racing cylinder heads (PN# M-6049-T46 & M-6050-T46) $1,590 (that's unported and unpolished)
Ford Racing cams (4 of them) and valves & springs (32 of them) $1,700
Hand ported stock intake manifold around $600 to $800 plus a $400 core
The best intake manifold is the variable runner by Ford Racing... $3,995 :shock:

I was also considering a supercharger, but the one that I wanted (Kenne Bell 9psi intercooled) is $6,000 :(

Not to mention, that none of this is touching the stock internals of an NA cobra which are not that good (except for the crank). To build up my Cobra motor (and do it right) I was looking more towards $6k to $10k to get to a power to weight ratio of 6 lbs/HP (for 600 HP in a 3600 lb car). To get the same ratio in my buggy I only need 200 HP.

So, in my mind, parts for my Buggy are "cheap" compared to upgrading my Cobra... Plus it takes a whole lot less power to make it just as fast when my buggy weighs about 1/3rd of what my Cobra convertible weighs :wink: Gotta love the power to weight advatange of VWs :lol:

Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:03 pm

vwdragracer wrote: Dingleweed wrote: What kind of rods are in your motor and with what kind of rod bolts? Is your counterweighted crank one that is a stocker with the counterweights welded on, or was it a one-piece forged unit? If you have a forged CW crank with forged rods, good rod bolts and forged pistons (along with your new case), then I don't see a weakness in your motor in order to put a turbo with low boost (less than 7-8 psi) on it.

this is a funny statement. I made almost 300 hp with a turbocharged 1915 using a DMS welded C/W crank, stock rods and engle 120 cam compression was at 9:1 and still got 24 mpg while being able to run 11.40 1/4 mile times.

I am currently using a DNS fullcircle welded crank in my 2332 and it make well over 550 hp. There is nothing wrong with using a welded crankas long as it comes from DMS and they know what your aplication is. Like any manufacturer they have some "econo" cranks that are not as good and can break

Cool! That's some very good info. So, do you think that newtownhood's Scat 1776 setup would be OK with a mild turbo?