TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:56 pm

so....im off this monday and think its time to change the trany gear oil.
i got some castrol gear oil and was wondering what everyone thought about lucas trany adative?

Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:28 pm

use it if you like, but all modern tranny fluids work great alone, without the snake oils

Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:06 am

No to both. These trannys require GL-4 rating only. Castrol and all the other new gear oils are harmful. Everyone will try to sell you GL-5. Don't. NAPA seems to be one of the only places you can get the lube with GL-4 rating. Put the GL-5 in your other cars, not the VW. It attacks the yellow metals used in in our trannys.

Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:43 am

damn. i would read this right after i drained mine. guess i'll call up napa and see if they have any gl-4 ... ::sigh::

::EDIT:: this does hold true with the trans. oil in autosticks as well? ... not the ATF, but the gear oil in the trans.

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:05 am

Desertbusman wrote: No to both. These trannys require GL-4 rating only. Castrol and all the other new gear oils are harmful. Everyone will try to sell you GL-5. Don't. NAPA seems to be one of the only places you can get the lube with GL-4 rating. Put the GL-5 in your other cars, not the VW. It attacks the yellow metals used in in our trannys.

That is a myth. I have been using GL-5 in my brand new transmission for months now, and it shifts fine. :wink:

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:16 am

Suggestion:

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_gearlubricants.asp

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:46 am

I second the Red line Synthetic! Put it in My '68 and it's shifts slicker than snot! Scott

Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:13 pm

what does everyone else know about gl5, fact or myth? i don't want to doubt either person without evidence, and quite frankly i wouldn't know which to doubt, but would probably want to be on the safe side. found out napa does keep it in stock, just a little bit pricey compared to the gl5.

Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:18 pm

WolvenGoth wrote: what does everyone else know about gl5, fact or myth? .

Instead of asking on a VW forum where this myth has been running rampant for years, ask the Ford/Chevy/Dodge/Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Volvo/.............. guys. They have never heard of this problem because IT DOES NOT EXIST!

I have asked in the past for anyone who's had any failures to post pics. So far no one has ever seen any failures. Anyone got some pics to post?

If there was a risk of damage, there would be a warning label on the oil. I've never seen one. Older mechanics will remember back in the 80s when bottles of ATF had a warning, "Not for Audi Power Steering systems". The oil companies tend to make more money by making products that don't harm your car. If damage was occuring, don't you think there would be the odd lawsuit you would have heard of?

Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:07 pm

ok...i grabed a bottle of coastol....not castrol...
and it said for gl4 AND gl5....
so if gl5 is bad....why would they make it for gl4 and gl5 in the same bottle.
also....my bentlysaid nothing about the gl4...just about wt.
i am not meaning to sound like a smartass so please dont take it as such,im just working this out before i drain and fill!!!

no one here used the lucas stuff?

Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:35 pm

I've checked a bottle of wal-mart brand at the store, that's all they had for synthetic, it said gl-5 rated and specifically said formulated to protect copper and bronze bushings on the bottle! So, what's the problem!?! Not pushing this brand but only synthetic they had to compare. Personally, I have Red-line in mine and it meets gl-4&5 specs! Scott

Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:07 pm

GEAR AND SYNCHRONIZER WEAR PROTECTION
Most manufacturers of manual transmissions and
transaxles recommend an 80W or 90W GL-4 lubricant.
GL-5 gears oils which are required in hypoid differentials
are not used in most synchromesh transmissions
because the chemicals used to provide the extreme
pressure protection can be corrosive to synchronizers,
which are commonly made of brass or bronze. Typically,
the use of a GL-5 lubricant in a synchromesh
transmission will shorten the synchronizer life by one
half. The extreme pressure requirements of spur gears
and helical gears found in transmissions are not nearly
as great as found in rear-wheel drive differentials. A
GL-4 lubricant provides adequate protection for most
manual transmissions, unless a unique design
consideration requires the extra protection of a GL-5.
The reason that many manufacturers have made
recommendations of motor oils or ATFs is that petroleum
80W gear oils frequently do not shift well at low
temperatures. Motor oils and ATFs are much more fluid
at lower temperatures and they are not corrosive toward
synchros, but they provide very poor gear protection.
These lubricants provide almost no extreme-pressure
protection. In addition, petroleum multigrade motor oils
and ATFs have very poor shear stability. The shearing
action by a manual transmission on thickeners is much
worse than in an engine or automatic transmission.
Within 5,000 miles the thickeners can be rendered
ineffective and the transmission will be operating on a
much reduced level of protection, as shown in the graph
below. In hot weather these transmissions will whine
and rattle because of poor vibration dampening and
metal contact. Red Line MTL and MT-90 provide the
excellent gear protection of a GL-4 gear oil in a synthetic
lubricant which spans hot and cold temperatures and will
not shear or oxidize with use.
DIRECTIONS FOR USE
Red Line MTL may be used in transmissions which
recommend 75W, 80W, or 85W GL-4 gear oils, or SAE
30 or 5W/10W30 motor oils. If a 90W GL-4 or SAE 40,
10W40, or 15W40 is required, MT-90 may be used. If the
transmission or transaxle requires an SAE 90 GL-5 gear
oil, then Red Line 75W90NS or 75W140NS Gear Oil
may be used. In transmissions which recommend Dexron
or Mercon fluids we recommend our D4 ATF which is
very similar to the MTL, being a GL-4 Gear Oil also. The
D4 ATF will provide better low-temperature shiftability,
and the MTL would provide better wear protection for
racing use. MTL is not designed for use in rear-wheel
drive differentials. Those generally require a GL-5 lubricant
such as Red Line 75W90 Gear Oil. It is not necessary
to flush the transmission before replacing with MTL.
Remove the drain plug and drain while warm. Seal
compatibility has been designed to be similar to petroleum
lubricants, and leakage should be no greater than
any other oil of comparable viscosity. Being formulated
with extremely stable synthetic basestocks, MTL and
MT-90 will last much longer than conventional petroleum
lubricants. However, we do not recommend extended
drain intervals, since without a filtration system, there is
no way to remove metal shavings other than draining the
lubricant. The regular maintenance intervals are also
recommended to insure that the proper level of the fluid
is maintained.
DESIGNED FOR PERFORMANCE
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation is the leader in lubricant
and fuel system chemistry. Red Line sets the standards
for equipment durability and increased performance.
Red Line manufactures a full line of automotive
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Fuel System Antifreeze & Water Remover
SI-1 Fuel Injector & Intake Valve Cleaner
SI-2 Injector & Valve Detergent - BMW # 8888 6 900307
Lead Substitute
Motor Oils - 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 15W50, 20W50
Diesel Engine Oil - 15W40
Race Oils - SAE 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70
High-Performance Two-cycle Lubricants
Gear Oils - SuperLight, LightWeight, 75W90, 75W90NS,
75W140NS, 80W140
ATF - Synthetic Dexron II / Ford Mercon, Racing ATF,
D4 ATF, High-Temp ATF
CV-2 CV-Joint and Wheel Bearing Grease
Assembly Lube
© 1997, 1992, 1988 Red Line Synthetic Oil Corp.
0
2
4
6
8
10
12
Viscosity Units, cSt @ 100°C
New Oil After 5,000 Miles
MTL 80W
Gear Oil
ATF 10W30
Motor Oil
VISCOSITY LOSS IN TRANSMISSION USE
RED LINE®
MTL®
Manual Transmission /
Manual Transaxle
Lubricant
TECHNICAL
INFORMATION
RED LINE SYNTHETIC OIL CORP.
6100 Egret Court
Benicia, CA 94510
(707) 745-6100
www.redlineoil.com

Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:00 pm

The only "tip" I can give you is the same one that was given to me earlier. Be sure to remove the fill plug before you remove the drain plug. If you drain the transmission oil and then discover you can't break the fill plug loose.....well, you get the picture. ;-)

As for what to use, do a search on these forums and you will discover several "discussions" about this. I changed mine recently and used Stalube 85w90 gear oil (GL-4) that I bought at my local NAPA.

Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:31 pm

Hi Volks,
Try these:

Automotive Lubricant Engineering website:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120197&page=1

From the type2 list:
http://www.type2.com/library/drivetra/gl4oil.htm

Vintage BMW cycles:
http://members.aol.com/antiquebmw4/gearoil.html

Redline tech website. Read the "GEAR AND SYNCHRONIZER WEAR PROTECTION" section:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-mtl-tech.htm

Vintage Triumph Registry:
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/lubricants-redline.shtml#gear-oil

Royal Purple gear oil. Read the "Will Royal Purple Gear Oil also meet GL-4 requirements?" section:
http://www.georgiawestern.com/rpfq.html

Pennzoil website. Bottom is the GL-4 Tech data you can download. If brass syncros are not bothered by GL-5 gear oil why is it they state in thier GL-4 gear oil " It is formulated to be compatible with copper containing alloys and soft metals found in syncronizers"? :
http://www.pennzoil.com/products/gear_oil/syn_gear7590.html

Here from Antique BMWs is another downloadable Pennzoil paper on thier GL-4 gear oil that states " It is formulated to be compatible with "Yellow Metals", such as bronze, found in syncronizers, and other transmission components." @:
http://members.aol.com/antiquebmw4/80w90gl4.pdf

Interestly we could not find in the Pennzoil GL-5 gear oil info that it was compatible to either or both copper and yellow metals.
As for other makes not having syncro corrosion problems first would be good to find out which used brass or cheaper bronze alloy tranny parts. After all if they used better bronze alloys or steel this type of corrosion would be moot.
Since all official VW manuals state to use GL-4 gear oil we will stick with that. Plus we have a mid 1970s VW Workshop Bulletin that staes using GL-5 will cause syncro corrosion.

Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:35 pm

Swepco 201 is GL5 rated and perfectly safe for VW transaxles. It all has to do with the "additive package" used and Swepco's additives are perfectly safe for "yellow metals".

I use it in my Berg 5 tranny.

Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:51 am

Eric&Barb wrote: Hi Volks,
Try these:

Automotive Lubricant Engineering website:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120197&page=1

From the type2 list:
http://www.type2.com/library/drivetra/gl4oil.htm

Vintage BMW cycles:
http://members.aol.com/antiquebmw4/gearoil.html

Redline tech website. Read the "GEAR AND SYNCHRONIZER WEAR PROTECTION" section:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-mtl-tech.htm

Vintage Triumph Registry:
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/lubricants-redline.shtml#gear-oil

Royal Purple gear oil. Read the "Will Royal Purple Gear Oil also meet GL-4 requirements?" section:
http://www.georgiawestern.com/rpfq.html

Pennzoil website. Bottom is the GL-4 Tech data you can download. If brass syncros are not bothered by GL-5 gear oil why is it they state in thier GL-4 gear oil " It is formulated to be compatible with copper containing alloys and soft metals found in syncronizers"? :
http://www.pennzoil.com/products/gear_oil/syn_gear7590.html

Here from Antique BMWs is another downloadable Pennzoil paper on thier GL-4 gear oil that states " It is formulated to be compatible with "Yellow Metals", such as bronze, found in syncronizers, and other transmission components." @:
http://members.aol.com/antiquebmw4/80w90gl4.pdf

Interestly we could not find in the Pennzoil GL-5 gear oil info that it was compatible to either or both copper and yellow metals.
As for other makes not having syncro corrosion problems first would be good to find out which used brass or cheaper bronze alloy tranny parts. After all if they used better bronze alloys or steel this type of corrosion would be moot.

Post your pics of syncros that were damaged by GL-5.

Why don't you post some info on GL-5 gear oil that also meets the MT-1 spec?

Here's a link to the data sheet on GL-5 from the Pennzoil link above:

http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/DomesticMarketin...90GL-5.PDF

Nowhere does it say it is corrosive to anything.

Eric&Barb wrote: Since all official VW manuals state to use GL-4 gear oil we will stick with that. Plus we have a mid 1970s VW Workshop Bulletin that staes using GL-5 will cause syncro corrosion.

This is wrong. Nowhere in the Bentley manual does it state to use either GL-4 or GL-5. Plus, GL-5/MT-1 came out long after your 30 year old bulletin.

Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:53 am

John M. wrote: I have been using GL-5 in my brand new transmission for months now, and it shifts fine. :wink: MY transaxle has been using GL-4 for 36 years and it shifts great. :lol:

Richard Atwell has some interesting info to ponder over on his site.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/FAQContent.html
Scroll down to section 4.7

It's also interesting to compare the specs and labels on CRC's StaLube GL-4 and GL-5. One of them addresses our specific issue.

Bentley says "must meet specification MIL-L 2195 API/GL4". Thats for bugs and busses thru 1979.

Redline (synthetic) discusses petroleum GL-5's cutting the life of our bronze and brass in half.

You can Google GL-4 for a lot more info and discussions. And some of the alternatives may be good, such as the one Glenn likes. But GL-4 is a safe choice. One of my considerations is that gear oil specifically formulated for new vehicles is taylored around different conditions and requirements. Materials, speeds, clearances and tolerances, bearings, temperatures, pressures, power, etc, are much different on new designs than our old design.

Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:01 am

Bruce wrote:
Post your pics of syncros that were damaged by GL-5.

Not me. I don't have damaged syncros and I don't use GL-5.

Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:04 am

As recommended to me by my trans builder, I use Valvoline 80/90 with a half qt of Lucas gear oil added. No problems yet...if the yellow metals start to deteriorate in ten or fifteen years I'll have it repaired, but I'll probably break something from abuse long before that happens.

Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:14 am

Bruce,

After the last go around of the GL4 vs GL5 debate in the BWF, I called and spoke to some techies at Swepco. They told me that the MT-1 rating has nothing to do with GL5 not being corrosive. The problem is with the "additive package" that is added to GL5 lube. Most companies use cheap additives and it's those additives that can attack "yellow" metals. On the other hand Swepco and some other companies use more expensive additives and these do not damage "yellow" metals and are perfectly safe for VW transaxles.

Without asking you can't tell, so you can't assume that all GL5 gear lube is safe. On the other hand you can assume all GL4 is.

Read page 2.
http://www.swepcousa.com/lubesite/lubepdf/TG_199508.pdf