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Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:31 am

Okay, I recently read Ralph Nader’s “Small--on safety: The designed-in dangers of the Volkswagen” book. While he is an obvious hater the Beetle is not the safest thing on the road. So outside of driving carefully and regular maintenance (like fuel lines) what improvements have you made to the safety of your Super Beetle? While I personally have a 1973 Super I am interested in other models as well.

Things that VW did to improve safety:
Quoting Bruce from http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81420
<Quote>
The safest Bug is a 73 or later German made car. They have side impact beams in the doors just like all other USA spec cars built after 73.

There is a safety report on Beetles, but it is heavily biased against. It was written by a group for Ralph Nader. "Small on Safety" should be in your local library. If you read the book it is clear that all the safety concerns they had were addressed by VW by 73. Here's a few I can remember that Ralph didn't like:

Fuel filler inside trunk. Moved to the outside of the body in 68.
Seats that could rip off the seat tracks. Fixed with 73s new seat tracks.
Face close to windshield. 1303 Super Beetle.
Swing axle unsafe in tight corners when lifting off throttle. Fixed in 69 with IRS.
Dim headlights and lethargic wipers. 12V in 67.
</Quote>

Things I’ve done that might be considered safety improvements:
Front Disc Brakes
Fire Extinguisher
Made a bulkhead thingy (as per Hoover) to replace the rubber grommet where the metal fuel lines passes through the front engine tin.

Things I will do that might be considered safety improvements:
I got this metal beam that bolts between the front bumper brackets that should add some strength.
Strut tower braces, bigger front sway bar, and add rear sway bar. I figure if I can’t go faster might as well have good handles to get out of the way.
Color Choice? In primer right now, reading about how Silver is supposed to be safer?

Things that Nader mentioned that I want to ask about:
Strap down the gas tank? Has anyone done this? In his book he talks about when the Beetle gets hit in the front the gas tank pops up (the cap leaks, but the tank does not rupture) and at the end he recommends that VW should strap the tanks down to keep in place during an accident. This wouldn’t be hard for me to do especially with the Super’s tank being flat. Any opinions on strapping the gas tank down?

So lets talk safety from the point of the enthusiast daily driver. What, if anything, could be done to make our cars safer? Not just from the Nhater standpoint, but from real world experiences with safety problems and solutions.

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:37 am

get a 6pt roll cage.

http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.p...aa66d30e7c

Just a though

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:41 am

Realistically, to make a Bug as safe as any other contemporary vehicle on the road, you've have to make dramatic changes that would change its classic, characteristic aesthetics (hence, the New Beetle--or Not Beetle, depending on your inclinations).

Air-cooled VWs, while dear to all our hearts as enthusiasts, are death traps, simply put. Automotive safety was just starting to come into play as a federally-mandated issue in the late '60s, and the reality of any air-cooled VW is they do not have any kind of crash-resistance to speak of.
People get lucky in accidents on occasion, but it isn't because the design of the car is "safe" to speak of, IMO.

As you mentioned, there are things you can do to help improve stopping performance and a roll cage will no doubt help in the event of a rollover, but all you have to do is look at the structure of the cars to realize how little crash protection is there.

I read Nader's book and I'll admit it gave me food for thought, though I also realize Nader is anti-car, largely, or so it would appear, but fact is there's a lot of factors the book discusses that can't be ignored, as much of it is common sense.

Best thing VW drivers can do is drive defensively and be careful, as one good wreck puts the odds not in a VW driver's favor.

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:51 am

A few suggestions off the top of my head.

Use original bumpers and bumper brackets, they're much stronger and safer than repop bumpers.

Get high performance headlights that use H4 bulbs, so you can see the road better and so other drivers can see you better.

Replace original seat belts, the webbing becomes stiff and brittle when they are old and they will shred apart in an accident.

Give a little more room when following, the original brakes even when properly tuned don't stop as effectively as modern cars do.

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:55 am

Calisupastarz wrote: A few suggestions off the top of my head.

Use original bumpers and bumper brackets, they're much stronger and safer than repop bumpers.

Get high performance headlights that use H4 bulbs, so you can see the road better and so other drivers can see you better.

Replace original seat belts, the webbing becomes stiff and brittle when they are old and they will shred apart in an accident.

Give a little more room when following, the original brakes even when properly tuned don't stop as effectively as modern cars do.

I support all of your assertions with the exception of that of bumpers, as it doesn't matter whether you have OG equipment or not, those blades aren't going to do squat when you get hit at 20 mph or better! :lol:

I especially agree with the latter, old school drums just don't compare to newer ABS systems with discs.

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:43 am

Well, you can alleviate the brake problem with disc brakes. ABS wasn't a big thing unil the late 80's, so its not a must have.

As for seat belt, I would say a good 3 point seat belt or better, like race seat belts, will help

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 pm

bugnut68 wrote: I support all of your assertions with the exception of that of bumpers, as it doesn't matter whether you have OG equipment or not, those blades aren't going to do squat when you get hit at 20 mph or better! :lol:

I especially agree with the latter, old school drums just don't compare to newer ABS systems with discs.

I'll agree with your assertion that the bumpers don't do much for impacts above 20 mph, I was referring more to the "parking lot" type accidents which can damage the hood, decklid, etc.

I thought of one more thing, make sure you have a spare tire. Not only is it necessary for flat tires, it also serves as another impact absorber on the front end.

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:09 pm

Herby wrote: Well, you can alleviate the brake problem with disc brakes. ABS wasn't a big thing unil the late 80's, so its not a must have.

As for seat belt, I would say a good 3 point seat belt or better, like race seat belts, will help

Might want to check the state laws on four and five point harnesses, as in many cases they aren't "technically" legal for use on the street, from what I'm to gather.

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:32 pm

Back in the day my brother worked for the Center for Auto Safety in Washington DC.
My father always said he worked for "Naders Raiders" which would just piss my brother off no end!
Nader made is reputation on the Corvair, and then went on to go after VW.
He never really repeated is success with the VW, because everybody looked at the VW, knew it was unsafe, but bought them anyway.
My brother did get me a copy of Small on Safety

Primary Safety issues with VW Bugs from Small on Safety:
VW Bug has no crush zones
We have all seen the picture of the orange Bug being crash tested.
VW fixed this problem in '98 with the New Beetle, amazing what a beetle shaped body over a Golf can do.
VW Bug has no firewall from the gas tank
You can strap that tank down all you want, but once the cap (67 & down) comes off, or the filler hose breaks (68 & up) in a collision, all that gas spray hits the wiring and the fire comes right through the speaker grills & glove box. Curved Window Super Beetle actually have a firewall.
VW Bug up to 73 have bad seat rails & seats break during rear enders, occupants can actually fly out the rear window.
At least you can try to fix this one, get a couple of u-bolts and secure the seats to the pan. I did this on my 67. The design was changed in '73 to a 3 point design that VW still uses today.
VW Bug with swing axles can tuck under & roll
This one isn't such a biggie anymore because most folks driving Bugs now days understand proper tire inflation,
but back in the day your friendly gas station attendant could get you killed by setting your tire pressure just like he set all "American cars".
Get a camber compensator anyway, they work and look cool! IRS fixed this from '69 on US spec cars.
VW Bug steering wheel & shaft up to '68 are lethal
VW used a shaft from the steering coupler to the steering wheel, so for every inch of rearward travel that the front beam & steering box come towards you, so does the steering wheel & shaft, only in the most serious impacts does it bend, most likely it will bend because it has driven you into the door jamb. From '68 they added a 12" crush shaft, and then in '72 the steering wheel got a 3" crush zone as well as a flush surface to spread collision loads.
VW Bug knobs are made from hard plastic & when you face hits them you get a knob imbedded into your face.
All cars where like this until the mid to late 60's, USE YOUR SEATBELTS ! VW fixed this around '68 just like everybody else

The VW Bug weighs 800 to 3500 lbs. less than almost anything on the road today, even a Toyota Yaris weighs in at 2300 Lbs.
It's like Bill Cosby said "You hit a dog and you loose". I would never recommend one to a teenage driver, or parents of a teenage driver.
I like my Bug, and if I get killed in it that is fine. There is nothing you can really do to the car to make it as safe as a modern car.
And just to piss off the "Vintage Boys" I will say that the later Bugs & Supers are better cars, VW practiced the "Continuous Improvement Process" on the VW Beetle to the bitter end of it's German production cycle. The whole Fat Chick thing just pisses me off.

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:45 pm

I was thinking on this subject myself not too long ago. When I open my own hot rod shop some day in 30years one option we could do if the owner wished is bulk up the saftey of the antique auto. but we'd do it tastefully: hidden side and front airbags, side impact bars A,B,&c pillar beefing perhaps with thick solid chromoly steel inside. what ever you could think of but hide it all so it's not obvious.

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:02 am

You can invest in newer seats out of a modern car. I have a set of Saturn LS seats that I have reiforced to make them less likly to deform in an accident. I also have newer seat belts out of some 90 VW I cant remeber the exact year i will pull it out of my notes when I get back to the garage. I am looking into some additional side reinforcement as well as some on the floors. I am not to worried aout the roof as I have both seen and been in a severe rollover (not driving) in a super and they dont crush to bad.

I had a bad head on driving a 71 super about 8 years ago. The seat belt broke and I ate the window. Then the seat back broke and the seat bottom came off the pan. The seat was in good shape and the pans were almost new at the time of the wreck. I have a nice scar over my eye as a parting gift. The front end crumpled reall nice and absorbed alot of the energy. The spare tire probably helped some as well.

The bottom line is alot can be done to improve the safety of the car without loosing the cars over all look. It will never be as safe as say a mid 90's car but you could get it close to a mid to late 80's car. With out a roll cage.

The Pirate

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:14 am

Calisupastarz wrote:
Give a little more room when following, the original brakes even when properly tuned don't stop as effectively as modern cars do.
I beg to differ on that. A Beetle with disc brakes will out-brake most new cars. It is the Beetle's rear weight bias that causes this. Because there's so much weight on the rear staticly, the car can have much bigger rear brakes and not have them lock up in heavy braking.

If you really want to improve your chances in a crash, you could fairly easily adapt an airbag steering wheel from a newer WC VW or Porsche. The splines are the same as 74 and later Beetles, so all you would need is the sensors and electronics to drive it. The later steering shaft could be put in.

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:05 am

did anyone ever say " i want a safe car to drive, i think i'll buy a beetle, they look like they could stand a good front end crash" i didnt :P

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:09 am

Quote: did anyone ever say " i want a safe car to drive, i think i'll buy a beetle, they look like they could stand a good front end crash" i didnt Razz

maybe not, but safety is pretty important for those of us with something to live for.

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:28 am

This is a good read and related to safety, good fire prevention stuff - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131225

Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:09 am

If you guys are trying to compare a real Beetle to a modern car in terms of safety, forget it-that is an unfair comparison. The same can be said of ANY car of that era. Safety has come a very long way in the past decade alone. For its day the Beetle was a relatively safe car-VW really stepped up its safety programs in the 70s.

As for the orange Bug crash test, done by the ADAC did you read the report? This test was done along with tests of a Golf 2 (US 1985-93 style) and a Golf 4. The Golf 4 was far and away the safetst of the 3. HOWEVER, the Beetle did outperform the Golf 2. Surprising yes but it does show just how good a job VW did years ago.

If you do not think that VW took safety seriously in the 70s with even with its then again air cooled line, consider this. The Super Beetle was introduced to end several issues with the standard bug-luggage space among them. But VW really did their homework and redesigned the entire front structure to make it far safer. The 73 model featured a curved windshield to comply with future safety laws (distance of the windshield from the driver) that never came to be. Another model that Nader griped about was the Bus. VW totally redesigned the front structure of the Bus for 73 to withstand a head on collision with no injuries to a seat belted occupant at 35mph-this was way before safety standards were required for that vehical type. This is not to mention the fact that VW had been testing air bags, Anti lock brakes, and passive seat belts on Beetles in the 70s.

Personally I have been involved in several very solid accidents in Beetles as well as a Bus, and have been impressed at how well they stood up. Obviously you cannot compare it to a new car. Thats insane to try. The technology simply was not there. But for its time and even well beyond, and again compared to cars in its size catagory, the VW was pretty safe.

Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:59 am

bugnut68 wrote: Herby wrote: Well, you can alleviate the brake problem with disc brakes. ABS wasn't a big thing unil the late 80's, so its not a must have.

As for seat belt, I would say a good 3 point seat belt or better, like race seat belts, will help

Might want to check the state laws on four and five point harnesses, as in many cases they aren't "technically" legal for use on the street, from what I'm to gather.

This was discussed extensively and nobody was able to come up with any citation showing that multi-point harnesses were illegal.

However, in any bug, the most important safety component is the nut holding the steering wheel.

George

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:06 pm

All of the aforementions ideas are good one but none can be replaced by good safe driving.

Although I should warn you not to listen to Ralph Nader. He is a blithering idiot.

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:21 pm

I may get flamed for saying this and while I am most certainly NOT a fan of Ralph Nader, I DO feel that he did have a very positive impact on auto safety in general. He really did help bring its importance into the public eye, forcing automakers to really step up to the plate in terms of making cars safer. Unless there are some strong varialbles, if you are seatbelted in, the chance of surving an accident in one of today's cars is FAR greater than it was 10, 20, 30, 40 whatever years ago.

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:32 pm

Look at it this way, we are in less danger than motorcyclists. :wink: