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Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:20 pm

Hey guys,

I have a Ruby Red 65' Beetle. I'm in the process of getting it ready for paint. One thing I'll never understand is why automotive paint manufacturers charge SO MUCH MORE for RED paint. The price I got for one gallon of Chromabase Basecoat in L-456 color code (ruby red) was $376 dollars! And that's just for the basecoat, you've still got the basecoat reducer and clearcoat to deal with. Now I'm sure I could go with a cheaper brand like PPG Omni or Nason Ful-thane, but even with those paints the Red's are so much more than anything else.

Now here's the part that doesn't make sense...
If you buy a spraycan of red spraypaint you'll find that it's no more expensive than a can of white spraypaint or blue spraypaint. If you buy a quart of Rustoleum Red paint, you'll find that it's no more expensive than a quart can of White Rustoleum paint. So if commercial paint manufacturers are able to offer red paint for the same price as any other color WHY CAN'T DUPONT OR PPG??? What makes automotive paint so special? They're using the same pigments aren't they? Methinks we're getting ripped off here no?

Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:07 pm

its always been like that man. try pricing pearls.

Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:23 pm

welcome to paint 101
we started buying the
pearl buy it self and adding
as we go
little cheaper , but not much

Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:40 pm

Go to www.sherwin-automotive.com You can look-up any paint codes you desire and learn about their products. Try their "Dimension" product line. It's their middle-of-the-road brand and priced very competitively. The basecoat flows very well and the clearcoat is very durable. 4-5 coats of color and 4-5 coats of clear will yield a great finish. And, then of course, color-sand and buff 48-72 hours later and the final outcome will be beautiful. I use all brands, and this particular one performs exceptionally well when costs become an issue.

However, All RED Paint is expensive. It's the most expensive pigment in the paint world. Blues can also be very expensive as well.

More importantly than anything, educate yourself on the products and create solid relationships with your suppliers. Also, every chance you get, ask your suppliers about a "CASH Discount" you'll be surprised at how much the price can drop!

Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:56 am

I understand, but I think you may have missed my point...

The point is, if Rustoleum can be produced and offered in RED for the same cost as white, blue, or green, then why can't Dupont or PPG offer red paint for the same cost as any other color? If producing red paint costs so much more then why doesn't that cost show up in rattlecan paint or Rustoleum paint or any number of consumer-based paints out there? You see I think we're being told a lie by these manufacturers and it's about time we called them on it because the cost of these paints has gotten completely out of hand.

$400 dollars a gallon for RED basecoat??? F'kn please! Like where do we go from here boys, a $1000 a gallon? I think they'll keep raising the price and telling the lie so long as we keep paying the price and believing the lie.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:07 am

Did you read the little article in this months Hot VW about the EPA really moving to stop anyone but bonifide body shops from buying automotive paint.
That's where we are going from here.
If you want to paint some parts for your project- too bad.
You want to do a little touch-up -too bad.
Of course, the body shops love it, we have to come to them for everything.
The EPA nedds to have provisions for the hobbyist. Stay on top of this guys or the Gov. will take away another part of your life.
Maybe this need to be in Rants.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:40 am

The toner colors that make up the red color is what is really expensive. Red whether it is a solid red or pearl/metallic has always been very expensive................and some reds like "viper red" which is brighter and flashy seems to be more. The difference that i have found is that the same red in Dupont does not cover as fast as PPG base coat, which inturn means less material to buy.

I will explain why: In a gallon of Dupont basecoat (any color) 1/4 of the gallon are toners that make up that particular color, the rest of that gallon is a clear filler product known as balancer/binder which keeps the single pigments locked together to form the color. However in PPG's system it is the opposite less filler and more pigments which inturn gives you a higher rate of coverage.

Even though some colors are very expensive, what you are tring to get is the most for you money, now don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with Dupont i personally have found that PPG covers faster than Dupont therefore i will use less material.

Plus i have also found that when i use PPG i have found that it is more compatable with alot of the grapic paints that i use when laying out graphis or flames. i use alot of House of Kolor or Exotic basecoats and candies and the PPG DBU system works the best for me.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:16 am

base coat clear is 1 of the more expensive ways to go if you want to spend less most colors are available in a single stage which will save you alot...

& as for $1000 a gallon... actually there is paint aproaching $2000 that im aware of... it was $1700 a gallon last i heard $275 a pint $500 a quart what is it?? it is the paint that shifts colors as light hits it different ways chromalusion i believe never used it... but came close to buying some just to use on the flames so the flames would shift colors in sun....

Randy

Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:27 am

Sigh...

The ingredients necessary to produce the color Red don't change just because PPG or Dupont is making the paint. Pick up a can of cheap paint and the same toners are still there. We're not talking about metallics or pearls here (although that's another ripoff story...), we're talking about standard basic Red, like what's used on a 65' Beetle. Basically little red wagon Red. PPG and Dupont aren't performing magic here. They're creating the same basic color that many other paint manufacturers are creating, the only difference is in durability and shine.

Now when these corporate chemical executives tell me that it costs 4 times as much money to produce a particular color I raise an eyebrow. Fact is, it doesn't cost any more to produce this color. They've just created a whole mythology about it over the years and now everybody simply believes it whenever that myth is told!

Time to demand a REAL EXPLANATION I'd say...

Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:17 am

Evil Box wrote: Sigh...

The ingredients necessary to produce the color Red don't change just because PPG or Dupont is making the paint. Pick up a can of cheap paint and the same toners are still there. We're not talking about metallics or pearls here (although that's another ripoff story...), we're talking about standard basic Red, like what's used on a 65' Beetle. Basically little red wagon Red. PPG and Dupont aren't performing magic here. They're creating the same basic color that many other paint manufacturers are creating, the only difference is in durability and shine.

Now when these corporate chemical executives tell me that it costs 4 times as much money to produce a particular color I raise an eyebrow. Fact is, it doesn't cost any more to produce this color. They've just created a whole mythology about it over the years and now everybody simply believes it whenever that myth is told!

Time to demand a REAL EXPLANATION I'd say...

I see where your coming from. but Its not the same toners. paint something with rusto red then with a cheap single stage auto paint then a high dollar base clear. leave the 3 parts out in the sun for a year. the rusto will now be pink the cheap single stage will be getting dull. fast forward 3 more years. I guess that was red rusto? single stage will be lighter. high dollar will be close to the OG color.

as for EPA. been to Cali lately? 4 years ago the were already severely cracking down on hobbyests

Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:55 am

i_want_a_pre_49_ratbeetle wrote: base coat clear is 1 of the more expensive ways to go if you want to spend less most colors are available in a single stage which will save you alot...

& as for $1000 a gallon... actually there is paint aproaching $2000 that im aware of... it was $1700 a gallon last i heard $275 a pint $500 a quart what is it?? it is the paint that shifts colors as light hits it different ways chromalusion i believe never used it... but came close to buying some just to use on the flames so the flames would shift colors in sun....

Randy
Yes the chameleon colors are quite pricey depending on how many color flops you are looking for some flop 2,3, and five different shades and all the major brands have their own name to it.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:00 am

bam22422 wrote: Evil Box wrote: Sigh...

The ingredients necessary to produce the color Red don't change just because PPG or Dupont is making the paint. Pick up a can of cheap paint and the same toners are still there. We're not talking about metallics or pearls here (although that's another ripoff story...), we're talking about standard basic Red, like what's used on a 65' Beetle. Basically little red wagon Red. PPG and Dupont aren't performing magic here. They're creating the same basic color that many other paint manufacturers are creating, the only difference is in durability and shine.

Now when these corporate chemical executives tell me that it costs 4 times as much money to produce a particular color I raise an eyebrow. Fact is, it doesn't cost any more to produce this color. They've just created a whole mythology about it over the years and now everybody simply believes it whenever that myth is told!

Time to demand a REAL EXPLANATION I'd say...

I see where your coming from. but Its not the same toners. paint something with rusto red then with a cheap single stage auto paint then a high dollar base clear. leave the 3 parts out in the sun for a year. the rusto will now be pink the cheap single stage will be getting dull. fast forward 3 more years. I guess that was red rusto? single stage will be lighter. high dollar will be close to the OG color.

as for EPA. been to Cali lately? 4 years ago the were already severely cracking down on hobbyests

Enjoy your solvent based paints now in cali, because by 2009 cali will be switching from solvent based base coats to water based.......and the water based stuff (at least right now) kinda sucks. Right now Auto Air products is basically the only manafacturer of water based custom colors....those work pretty well.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:12 am

Bam22422,

Not really true...
Let's say you sprayed a fender with Rustoleum (and added enamel catalyst), then you waited till the enamel setup (maybe 24 to 48 hours with catalyst), then you scuffed it with 1500 paper to break the glaze and clearcoated it with a high-quality PPG clearcoat. Guess what... nobody would be able to tell that you sprayed the color coat in enamel AND the paint would hold up for years. Try it sometime, it works.

Gloss and color holdout is almost totally dependent upon the type of clearcoat you use. The better clearcoats have UV blockers in them that prevent the color coat from fading.

Matt,
Lived in California back in the late 80's. Really like it when I was there but wouldn't move back there now even if they put a gun to my head. Talk about living in the land of "NO!", hell you can't do ANYTHING in California anymore.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:18 am

Ok, give the art major a shot here. Red has always been more a more expensive pigment, and for good reason. No, it is not a myth that the pigments cost more. In every paint, not just automotive paint, the pigments that reflect the proper wavelengths to produce what our eyes understand as "red" are harder to produce (whether it's organic compounds or synthetic), and are much more unstable. They fade faster (ever noticed that red shirts in a washer are so much worse?), they are harder to achieve a consistent color in, and they are just finicky in nature. In order to make a quality product, huge quantities of the pigment are required. As an example: In glass blowing, gold dust is one of the ingredients needed to produce the color red. Gold is expensive. In regular paint, artists have always felt that Cadmium produces a truer, more long lasting red. Again, expensive because of its scarcity. Cheaper paints use cheap filler materials. Any company that sells you red paint for the same price as blue is selling you trash. So pony up for the good stuff. Isn't your baby worth it?

Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:53 pm

Easy,
Uh huh... but the quesion still remains; Why is cheapo brand-X able to produce/deliver red and yellow for the same price as blue, green, and white?

You're argument doesn't adress this irony. Why can one company do it and another one can't? Unless the company charging the astronomical price doesn't want to because they're making a killing off of the Red Paint Myth...

"Any company that sells you red paint for the same price as blue is selling you trash. So pony up for the good stuff. Isn't your baby worth it?" (Easy)

Way to confuse the issue Easy. Just because I love my car DOESN'T MEAN that I should allow myself to get ripped off by people who are attempting to use it against me. Are you sure you don't own an autobody supply or work for PPG or Dupont? 8)

Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:25 pm

Dude- PAY ATTENTION! The same price is because they use cheap, cheap fillers instead of using the correct amount/quality of pigment. spray a cheap blue and a cheap red on a piece of white paper/board/whatever you got. Notice that the blue comes out blue, the red comes out pink. Takes more of the red to make the paper look red. Why? Because they use cheap filler that is not red pigment, and you must spray more of it to get said pigment on the paper. Now let them dry. Keep them in the sun for a couple of days. Bring the pieces inside, and spray another blue dot on the blue paper. Spray some red on the red paper. I gaurantee you that the red will have faded much, much more than the blue.

Try the same test with quality products, and that won't be the case.

Find another place for the conspiracy theories, 'cause paint isn't where it's at.

Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:47 pm

Evil Box wrote: [ You're argument doesn't adress this irony. Why can one company do it and another one can't? Unless the company charging the astronomical price doesn't want to because they're making a killing off of the Red Paint Myth...

[ )

ever consider that the krylon and rustoleum folks are selling you everything at the red paints price?..just thought i'd throw that out there so if you decide to buy some rattlecan yellow you can be pissed that you had to pay more....<G>..

back in about 94 or so, Duponts Chromabase line was brand new...i bought a gallon of color, gallon of base maker and three quarts of clear....the price was 700 dollars....seems that chromabase line is a BARGAIN these days...not to mention 10 years after painting the car it was still a beautifully shiney car as it was stuffed in the crusher...

Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:18 pm

Easy,

Explain what you mean by "cheap, cheap fillers". First, before you try to B.S. me anymore, let me just say that I've been spraying cars for over 25 years. I've owned 2 autobody shops. I've sprayed just about every form of paint there ever was.

Now... believe me when I tell you that this whole red/yellow paint issue is a ROUSE! It is one of the biggest lies ever told by anyone in the automotive industry. It's right up there with the old wives tale about not changing your transmission filter because it'll make your transmission go bad. Ever hear that one? I remember when guys used to tell me that... "Don't change your transmission filter man! It'll make your tranny go bad!". What utter stupidity... What the hell did they think the filter was there for? I used to tell them, "You stupid ass, have you ever thought about what you just said? Fact is, if you DON'T change the filter the tranny will go bad!". Didn't they realize that this was just a myth developed by the tranny shops? Of course the tranny shops don't want you to change your tranny filter, it'll make your tranny go bad and you'll need a whole new transmission! LOL! The joke was on them, and they didn't even know it...

It's amazing how these myths can somehow take the shape of the truth if enough people repeat it enough times. Therefore I'll say it again, the Red paint issue is A MYTH. A falsehood started by paint company rep's about 35 years ago in order to get people in the industry to pay more money for red and yellow based paints. If it does cost more to produce red or yellow paint it's probably no more than 10 percent more expensive, NOT 400 PERCENT MORE EXPENSIVE.

So I would have to say that if you have any further problem with this argument it would indicate that you have some vested interest in seeing the myth continue. Because everybody I know knows it's a sham...

Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:22 pm

Evil Box wrote: [
So I would have to say that if you have any further problem with this argument it would indicate that you have some vested interest in seeing the myth continue. Because everybody I know knows it's a sham...

your paint supplier doesn't like you.... being in a family chock full of bodymen i can tell you that they don't pay "400 percent" more for red....

Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:25 pm

Okay maybe 400 percent was a little bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point, the whole thing is a sham.