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Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:22 am

I wasn't sure where to place this discussion, I want to know, witch kind of oil do you use on your aircooled engine, thickness, type, mineral, sync, sync blend, and i dont know if the moderator will allow to put the brand. If it's allowed, brand!!!

The thing is that I want to see the difference, I know that my country is very very hot, and we dont have winter here, for us winter means rain, and that's it, hehehe.

I am just curious!!!!! :roll:

P.D. Do u guys think that this discussion must be on the general chat?????

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:31 am

There was an article in VW trends last year where they did a test of conventional oil vs. synthetic. The engine ran cooler on synthetic, but because of the viscosity, it leaked.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:37 am

Quote: because of the viscosity, it leaked

eh?

I can see why the magazine went out of business. :P

I would do a search here and you will learn more about oil suggestions than you ever wanted to know.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:31 am

20W50 any name brand just pick one and stick with it. Changing the brand anytime you add a qt. is worse than not changing the oil.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:45 am

Randy in Maine wrote: Quote: because of the viscosity, it leaked

eh?

I can see why the magazine went out of business. :P

I would do a search here and you will learn more about oil suggestions than you ever wanted to know.

I tried a search not long ago to see what people were using. The results were far from informative.

A few things to think about when it comes to oil. ...and I'm sure there are a few people that will disagree with me.

1: Thinner oil soaks up heat better than a thicker oil.
2: Thinner oil releases heat faster than a thicker oil.
3: Thinner oil reduces friction better than thicker oil.
4: Thinner oil escapes a leaky engine easier.

Just a few points to think about. A lot of guys use 20/50 (yikes) in aircooled engines. I'm not really sure why people use such a thick oil in an aircooled engine. But, looking back in time, it was widely believed that a thicker oil was better for an engine....all engines.

Notice what new cars use. Nearly every single engine in any new car runs about 212 degrees or slightly higher. The oil they suggest is 5/30. A certain blue oval company uses 5/20 exclusivly in all of their car engines.

Most race cars will use a thin oil. Sometimes as low as 0wt oil. Nascar for example will use the thinnest they can get. Reduction of temps are noticed with a thinner oil, and the counterpart is higher output in power.

All oils today are a far cry of what they were in 1960, 1970, 1980 and 1990. Even 2000 standards have been far surpassed by new standards.

Personally, I don't care what you run in your engine, nor will I try to get you to change. The thickest I'll go is 10/40. And I'm considering trying 5/30 for my next oil change. That said, I also change my oil every 1500 miles. And am always mindful of leaks, and level.

Synthetic. If you're running a stocker, it's not really needed. If you run a turbo, I wouldn't use anything but synthetic.

VWtrends: So much junk info was spread due to these jackasses, I quit buying their rag mag months before they were FIRED.

Apart from all that stuff, I use Valvoline when using conventional. When I want synthetic, I reach for Mobil 1.

Stay clear of off brands. Wolfs Head oil is junk, for example. I also wouldn't use Havoline. Which is due to how they USED to be... I have no idea if they make good oil these days.

Anyway, there's some info for you to chew on. My suggestion is to do your own research off the forum(s). Everyone, including myself, have their own opinions. Many opinions are based on what Dad used in the tractor, or what Uncle Car Guy said the use. I use what my research pointed to. Thus far, I've yet to have any problems.

-kf

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:18 am

Thin oil breaks down faster with high heat and looses its lubricating qualities. Thicker oils perform better in high heat situations as the heat thins them while they retain their ability to lubricate. This is why John Muir's book (VW's for Idiots if you don't have it) reccomends straight 40wt. Granted, it's older information and a modern dual weight oil with an upper limit of 40wt will probably be just fine.
Also, most modern oils (and especially synthetics) include detergent compounds which carry away any wear products (small metal shavings created by normal engine wear and any carbon coumpunds). These oils are great if you're using a filter system, more of the crap gets removed thereby improving engine life. Therefore switching to one of these oils after a rebuild and the instalation of a filter would be an excellent idea.
As far as the 50wt oils go they're needed in hot climates, the 40wt reccomendation was made for a temprate region and if you're in the tropics or Death Valley or somplace a heavier oil can save your arse.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:30 am

Modern oils, as far as detergents go, check the back of the oil bottle and where it has the SAE seal, that's where it'll say energy converving. THOSE are the oils which contain the cleaning detergents. Most of your heavy weight oils, synthetic or not, don't have "energy conserving" on them for the obvious reasons.

<------Mobil 1 5w/30 or SAE 30 goes in pretty much every vehicle I've owned. Non Energy conserving....the ones with detergents KILL your clutch....motorcycles of course :wink:

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:41 am

I know the difference among the different types and stuff. I am the son of a mechanic, I grow up among cars, motors, racing and stuff, my question is quite simple, thickness.... I am kind of new in this Vw aircooled thing, I want to built my first one pretty soon, and I was looking for some advices when it comes to oil, because I am a motor freak, always looking at the gauges!!! hehehe..

And I thought that maybe youy guy from the samba use some specific type or brand of oil.

In my car i use syntec, for me is the best on the market, I've seen a lot of motors tear up, and when you see one with syntec for a long time, it is all clean, no chunks of sh... on the walls, is awesome. You can get that too with a mineral, I mean the clean stuff, the performance is way better on a syntec, I know that, but when it comes to aircooled, I dont know, I wonder what can be the best.

When my father used to race on a aircooled beetle of one of his friend, they didn't care about it, they just push the pedal to the metal and that's it, back in those days it was easy here, not many brands and not more than 2 or 3 thickness ( or weight). hehehe..

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:49 pm

I just got my bug back from having the motor replaced and the mechanic said DO NOT use oil with detergent it will ruin the motor. When I am shopping for oil how can I tell if it is detergent-free?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:50 pm

With the aircooled VW engine, there are several things to consider wrt oil.

1)The stock case is open to the atmosphere. Air enters the case interior past the pulley end of the crankshaft. Along with the air comes any particulates that happen to be in that air. These particulates are now in the oil.

2) The stock VW (type-1) engine has no oil filter. Thus, the particulates from 1) circulate over and over.

3)The stock VW engine has a thermostatically-controlled device designed to hasten engine warmup. It is very common for this system to be either disabled or removed completely.

The combination of 1 and 2 result in a real need to change the oil frequently. VW recommended every 3000 miles nominally, but in dusty or hot conditions that should probably more more frequent.

The need to change the oil that frequently can make use of a good synthetic a fairly expensive proposition. And pointless if the use of that oil was justified on the fact that it lasts longer.

Failure to maintain the thermostat and related hardware means that the engine spends more time below the designed operating temps. This increases wear and introduces more particulates into the oil. Also, if the oil never reachs operating temps, condensation places water in the oil.

Installation of a seal (called a "sand seal") in place of the "oil slinger" arrangement should keep most of the outside air crud out of the oil. The sand seal was originally design to keep sand and other stuff (like water) out of the case in off road applications.

Installation of a full-flow oil filtration system has become a fairly standard modification.

Theoretically, the above measures should make it possible to extend the oil change interval quite a bit and make synthetics much more cost-effective.

Max

Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:19 pm

Installation of a seal (called a "sand seal") in place of the "oil slinger" arrangement should keep most of the outside air crud out of the oil.

Uh, Hey Max the use of a sand seal does not preclude use of the oil slinger ring.. The oil slinger gets installed or stays in place, ok?? Besides have you ever heard of anyone splitting a case to remove the slinger just to install a seal??? I have not in nearly 30 years of building these engines..

While we are on the topic of sand seal, funny how many VWs ran for years without this so-called fix... Street driven cars do not need it at all..Sometimes you'll hear people hyping this up as a cure to oil leaks behind the pulley, but this is usually excessive blowby causing that condition... Unless you are churning up sand on a daily basis you'll never need it ;-) save your money friend.............

Jim-
62 bug
63 bug
69 bug
67 bus
74 thing ;-)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:11 pm

You will never get a "correct" answer about what brand/weight oil to use. So after years of reading several articals from all different types of sources, I finally decided to stick with the factory recomandations.

An interesting note, The two most tested fluids on this planet are motor oil and coffee.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:36 pm

SanFranciscoBug wrote: I just got my bug back from having the motor replaced and the mechanic said DO NOT use oil with detergent it will ruin the motor. When I am shopping for oil how can I tell if it is detergent-free?

If your mechanic told you to run non-degergent motor oil his is either a fool or a ripoff. Either way I wouldn't go to him anymore. Non-detergent was used back in the days of the model A Ford and contains no additives to prevent sludge buildup in your engine. It also has little to no antiwear additives. It is not suitable for use in any modern engine. Personally, I wouldn't use it even if I were driving a model A unless it were an old engine that already had a lot of sludge build up inside. Don't even think about running non-detergent oil in your air cooled VW unless you have a death wish for your motor.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:43 pm

brands aren't a huge deal; of course the 99¢ Coastal at Autozone isn't the one unless you leak like crazy and need something cheap. mainly it depends on the weather; myself, living in north florida where it never gets under about 65 in the summer I don't need anything too thick, but with a loose case I can't run real thin syn either.

I've always been a user of Castrol GTX because it's a good dino oil, good structure to it and holds up well. pennzoil is really popular (I work at autozone and see what people buy) but I don't really like it. you'll always hear different things from different people, listen to whomever you want but it's YOUR engine. brand name is important but it doesn't matter which one really.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:27 pm

I'm a "thin oil" type of guy myself.

In my 79 Westy (stock 2.0) I run the cheap 5w30 in it. I also run 85 octane in it. No pinging, and never an oil pressure problem. The thing gets floored into headwinds and up canyons all the time. Hydraulic valves actually stay quieter than it did with 20w50 or 15w40 too. Works great and is the el-cheapo 99 cents a quart oil from the local FLAPS.

In my drag motor, I run a thin oil as well. I'd like to try the Mobil 1 0w40 in it, but may end up running regular 5w30 in it as well. It takes 2 gallons per change, so I usually go for the stuff at Wal-Mart. I've run 15w40 in it, but the pressure gauge spikes without real high rpms, and the last thing I need to do is oil the track down with a blown filter or something.

I may even go with 5w20 in the drag motor this year just to keep things flowing, but would really be happy to find a "zero" weight oil for it.

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:28 pm

Zundfolge1432 wrote: Uh, Hey Max the use of a sand seal does not preclude use of the oil slinger ring.. The oil slinger gets installed or stays in place, ok?? Besides have you ever heard of anyone splitting a case to remove the slinger just to install a seal??? I have not in nearly 30 years of building these engines.
True, of course. Poor choice of words on my part. My point was that adding a sand seal should reduce the amount of external contaminants that get into the oil. I never advocated a sand seal for the purpose of stopping an oil leak at the pulley. That leak would only be a symptom of the real problem.

As far as street driven cars operating without sand seals, of course they do. Filtering the oil pretty much makes it a moot point. Of course a great many cars are also running around without an oil filter. Or functioning flaps. Or tin that fits right. You'll have to pardon me if I am not impressed by the state(s) in which cars have been running around for years. ;-)

But if I am putting the very best oil I can find in there (and paying a premium for it), I'm not cutting corners with respect to keeping that oil clean.

I don't have a sand seal on either of my own engines. I also don't use synthetic oil. But I do have full-flow systems, 8200 gause Sumarium Colbald magnets in the bottom of the sump and a fully functional flap system.

How often to I change the oil? When it needs changing. I use the color of the oil to tell me when to change it. Depending on conditions, that has turned out to be anywhere from few thousand miles to almost 10,000. Lots of short trips in cold weather make for frequent changes. Long highway miles tend to get me above 5k.

IMO, keeping the oil clean is far more important than what brand or formulation of oil you use.

Bob Hoover had a pretty good writeup on the subject of oil a few years ago. Let's see... Yep, it's still available:

http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_q=&num...p;safe=off

Max

Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:13 pm

That's a really informative link -- thanks Max!

(I see Bob has an interesting position on the vaunted Bentley manuals, too. :))

- Scott

Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:59 pm

So far I all I've read here suggests you choose the weight of your oil by the average temp where you live.
I say run the thinnest oil you can that still gives you good oil pressure, especially at idle. If your engine is new and was built with tight tolerances, a 5W-30 may be just fine, but an older engine may need 10W-40 or even 20W-50 to maintain decent oil pressure. It may take some experimentation and even then you may need to go thinner in winter and heavier in summer to keep the oil pressure where you want it.
Synthetic or not - doesn't really matter, it's up to you and your checkbook.
The myths about non-detergent oil really only apply if the engine was run a long time on non-detergent oil. Switching to a high detergent oil can break loose the buildup in the passageways and block oil to a bearing. Otherwise a detergent oil is fine. Good luck finding a non-detergent oil anyway.
Myself, I break in an engine with a diesel rated 30 weight, then at 1000 miles I switched to Mobil 1. But I run a full flow filter and my engine doesn't leak at all. And I still change the oil every 3000 miles.

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:03 am

Big Dave wrote: So far I all I've read here suggests you choose the weight of your oil by the average temp where you live.
I say run the thinnest oil you can that still gives you good oil pressure, especially at idle.

Myself, I break in an engine with a diesel rated 30 weight, then at 1000 miles I switched to Mobil 1. But I run a full flow filter and my engine doesn't leak at all. And I still change the oil every 3000 miles.

Thanks... that's what I've been looking for!!!! good idle pressure and protection on high rpm ( I guess everyone is looking for that), my place is really hot, and I am kind of scared when it comes to the oil.

I change the oil of my car every 4.000 km.