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PaytonD21
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:00 pm    Post subject: Gas in oil Reply with quote

As of recently I've noticed that gas is leaking into my oil. I adjusted the valves about a week ago and when I took off one valve cover a decent amount of gas poured out. I then changed the oil and then noticed a couple days later there was more gas in the new oil. I measured my fuel pressure and it was at 6psi. I made some gaskets out of rubber gasket material and lowered the psi down to just over 3. The car runs good and doesn't flood itself at an idle anymore, however I changed the oil a second time a couple days ago and I smell gas on the dipstick again.

The fuel pump is a new aftermarket (german quality) pump, the gaskets are new, the pushrod is new (and correct for an engine with a generator), the fuel pump flange has no cracks in it, and I spaced out the inlet valve in the carb (as well as tested it).

If it matters my carb is a H30/31 pict

The pictures below are just there to hopefully provide more info and maybe point out a problem
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Search and you will find threads about fuel pumps showing the different actuation rod lengths. If too long a rod is used it can rupture the new pump's diaphragm or otherwise affect operation. Sounds like you have a mismatch causing the pump to dump gas into the oil.
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PaytonD21
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

So basically what you are saying is that although my fuel pump supposedly fits my car and the push rod is the correct length for the car, they may not be the correct length for each other? Which could of caused the diaphragm to get damaged.
I did take the fuel pump apart, but I didn't notice the diaphragm to be ruptured.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

A couple of questions for you:
1. Did you replace the fuel pump because of this?
2. Did you notice this after changing the fuel pump?
3. On your carburetor, the fuel bowl looks low. Did you remove fuel from it for the picture?
4. Do you park on level ground or on a hill?
5. What is the compression on the motor.
6. Which valve cover poured gas?
7. What size motor and I'm assuming dual port?

Yes, fuel pump rod length can create issues. There are two lengths. One is 100mm long and the other is 108mm long. The one for a generator style pump is 108mm long. There is a lot of good looking grease in that fuel pump. I would expect the fuels solvent action to wash it away if the pump were leaking.

Fill the carb bowl with gas and observe it on a bench in a vice. Does it drip at all? That fuel will go down into the cylinders and because it is a solvent, will migrate into the cylinders and ultimately into the oil.

Low compression caused by worn rings can allow blow-by of gas/air into the crankcase.

And finally for one side to pour gas out could indicate a problem with the head itself. Perhaps a crack in the intake port somewhere.
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bluebus86
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

source of fuel in oil...
1. leaky pump diaphram... torn or rotted diaphram, could be old age, could be improper installation that causes the this (impropper rod length for instance can tear a good diaphram)

2. fuel from carb from leaky float valve, make sure valve seals Too high a fuel pressure may also cause the valve not to seal. get an accurate low pressure gage and check, or determine if the fuel level is proper or not in the carb bowl, adjust pressure to spec, then shim valve and or bend float arm as need to obtain correct level. make sure float is not flooded before adjsting, see below... also a dirty valve or one damaged can also leak even if float and pressure are fine.

3. sunken float (even a drip or two or fuel leaked into the float can cause it to not float high enough to shut off the valve, to test the float, place it in a pot of Hot water and observe if bubbles come out, sink the float to bottom of pot with a tool. the waters heat will cause any fuel in the float to expand as a vapor and bubbles will be seen leaking out if fuel is present. the test may not work unless the water is hot.

4. Badly adjusted carb causing rich running such that excess unburnt fuel is making it past the rings.


so your fuel may be getting in past the pump, or past the rings if carb is source of problem of cojrse excess pressure from pump will cause the excess fuel to enter thru the carb as would carb problems as stated above. if the diaprham of the pump is intact, then it is likely the leak is from the carb, but the carb might be leaking becuase the pump is delievering too much pressure, or it could be a problem with the carb itself as stated above


Note. you appear to have way too much silicone on the pump base, it appears very thick. I simply use the paper gasket for this, with just a touch of "form a gasket", Silicone rubber RTV is generally not very fuel proof, and thus something like Form a Gasket (Permatex brand) would be a better choice here.

besure to read up on link at bottom of my post on engine fires and carb, pump safety wires.


good luck


ps my crank case filled with over a gallon of gasoline when the float valve failed.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:
1. Did you replace the fuel pump because of this?
2. Did you notice this after changing the fuel pump?
3. On your carburetor, the fuel bowl looks low. Did you remove fuel from it for the picture?
4. Do you park on level ground or on a hill?
5. What is the compression on the motor.
6. Which valve cover poured gas?
7. What size motor and I'm assuming dual port?


1. I replaced the fuel pump because the car dies on the freeway (didn't fix the problem)
2. After the switch the car would die at idle because the fuel pressure was too high. This is when I checked the valves and noticed the gas in the oil. So yes I guess.
3. Nope. Thats what the fuel level was when I took the top off the carb. Could be some already leaked into the oil?
4. A very slight uphill.
5. Unsure.
6. The 3 and 4 valve cover. I don't have a floor jack so I had to jack up the back one side of at a time which could have caused the gas to go to one side.
7. 1600 dual port
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Fuel level is too low in that carburetor. That does not close the needle valve in the top because the float is so far down. I'd pull the carb and fill the bowl and then watch. Something is leaking internally. Also, slight uphill on the driveway and a leaking carb....well, you know the rest.

Do take some time with the carb and I believe you'll find it dripping
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:
1. leaky pump diaphram... torn or rotted diaphram, could be old age, could be improper installation that causes the this (impropper rod length for instance can tear a good diaphram)

2. fuel from carb from leaky float valve, make sure valve seals Too high a fuel pressure may also cause the valve not to seal. get an accurate low pressure gage and check, or determine if the fuel level is proper or not in the carb bowl, adjust pressure to spec, then shim valve and or bend float arm as need to obtain correct level. make sure float is not flooded before adjsting, see below... also a dirty valve or one damaged can also leak even if float and pressure are fine.

3. sunken float (even a drip or two or fuel leaked into the float can cause it to not float high enough to shut off the valve, to test the float, place it in a pot of Hot water and observe if bubbles come out, sink the float to bottom of pot with a tool. the waters heat will cause any fuel in the float to expand as a vapor and bubbles will be seen leaking out if fuel is present. the test may not work unless the water is hot.

4. Badly adjusted carb causing rich running such that excess unburnt fuel is making it past the rings.


1. The pump is new and the rubber on the diaphragm looks fine. When the pressure was at 6psi the rod could have been too high and damaged the diaphragm.
2. I've blown through the valve and its clear and when the valve is closed no air goes through. It's shimmed to 1.5mm. The pressure is now down to 3psi using a low pressure gauge.
3. I will try that test. The carb is new as of January so I expect the float to be fine, but I will still test it.
4. The carb was installed by a trusted mechanic and tuned at the same time. I have just made a few adjustments to lower the idle.


Quote:
Note. you appear to have way too much silicone on the pump base, it appears very thick.

Those are gaskets I cut to raise the fuel pump in order to lower the fuel pressure.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:
Fuel level is too low in that carburetor. That does not close the needle valve in the top because the float is so far down. I'd pull the carb and fill the bowl and then watch. Something is leaking internally. Also, slight uphill on the driveway and a leaking carb....well, you know the rest.

Do take some time with the carb and I believe you'll find it dripping

So you think that the fuel level could be high enough to stop the valve but then is leaking allowing the the valve to open?
I'll pull it tonight and see if it leaks. As well as test the float.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

PaytonD21 wrote:
Quote:
Fuel level is too low in that carburetor. That does not close the needle valve in the top because the float is so far down. I'd pull the carb and fill the bowl and then watch. Something is leaking internally. Also, slight uphill on the driveway and a leaking carb....well, you know the rest.

Do take some time with the carb and I believe you'll find it dripping

So you think that the fuel level could be high enough to stop the valve but then is leaking allowing the the valve to open?
I'll pull it tonight and see if it leaks. As well as test the float.



if the valve was leaking, the level would be too high. however it appears the level is low for running, but maybe you disurbed the level so it went down, open top off of carb for while and a bunch will evaporate.

you got 3 psi now, spec is 2.8 so youre within about 7% of target. whats the max on your gage? it should be fairly low, ideally about 6 psi so your target reading ( 2.8 ) is mid range.


good luck

ps I have had brand new float leak right out of the box. the bubbles can be fine so bright lighting helps, be paitent, use piping hot water!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Rebuild kits come with crappy float valves. Clean you old one and use the new spacer gasket.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:

if the valve was leaking, the level would be too high. however it appears the level is low for running, but maybe you disurbed the level so it went down, open top off of carb for while and a bunch will evaporate.

you got 3 psi now, spec is 2.8 so youre within about 7% of target. whats the max on your gage? it should be fairly low, ideally about 6 psi so your target reading ( 2.8 ) is mid range.

I guess rereading what I said about the float valve doesn't quite make sense. Where would the fuel be leaking from to go into the oil. The level was like that after sitting overnight. The fuel may have leaked into the oil causing it to look like the fuel level is low.

My guage goes up to 10. It was the lowest I could find, but it's better than 100psi ones you can rent from part stores
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:

Rebuild kits come with crappy float valves. Clean you old one and use the new spacer gasket

Done and done. I first put the new one in but then was advised to go back to the old one. The spacer gasket is 2 combined to equal the 1.5mm that the h30/31 calls for.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

PaytonD21 wrote:
I guess rereading what I said about the float valve doesn't quite make sense. Where would the fuel be leaking from to go into the oil. The level was like that after sitting overnight. The fuel may have leaked into the oil causing it to look like the fuel level is low.


If the float is heavy (leaking) or if the fuel pump overcomes the float valve, the bowl will overfill, and force fuel up the vent tube, and down the carb throat. If it gets past rings while sitting, it can make its way to the crankcase and dilute your oil.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:

If the float is heavy (leaking) or if the fuel pump overcomes the float valve, the bowl will overfill, and force fuel up the vent tube, and down the carb throat. If it gets past rings while sitting, it can make its way to the crankcase and dilute your oil.

I tested the float a couple days ago by having it float in some gas. It floated but was sitting very low in the gas. I will test it again tonight.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

The past couple times I have started the car a cloud of white smoke comes from the exhaust, which is making me believe that it is the carb that is leaking and not the fuel pump. Also there is a significant amount of gas leaking into the oil. When I changed the oil (on Saturday) the oil was between the 2 lines on the dipstick. As of today the level is now above the 2nd line on the dipstick.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

PaytonD21 wrote:

I tested the float a couple days ago by having it float in some gas. It floated but was sitting very low in the gas. I will test it again tonight.


Anyone got a spec on the float weight? A small digital scale should be accurate enough. One post says 10.5 grams.

Do these solid floats absorb ethanol from the gas?

Also, submerge it in gas overnight. Then dry the exterior and shake it, listening for any sloshing. EDIT: I see it may have a solid float, so no shaking test. They are solid but can soak up fuel and thus drop too low. Weight should tell you if it has absorbed fuel.

Searching, I see a reference to float valve gasketing totaling 1.5mm.

I also see a reference to the stock carb (not yours) having a fuel level 12-14mm below the top of the bottom casting. This is not necessarily correct for YOUR carb, though:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1235560.jpg

Another link says:
Quote:
the carb float level on mine is 19.5mm. from top lip
this can be tested in car or out of car.
this is what really counts. if the float sinks all bets are off.
the float weight counts too, and is 8.5 grams.
this counts too. and is different on different models
but if you get the float height right. it's all ok.


Lots of (often conflicting) info out there... more quotes:

Quote:
I the case of those black plastic floats they have a coating that can break down and allow the solid ( it's not a hollow float like original Solex carbs came with where you could see if there was fuel in it from a breech) but porous material of that style float to take on fuel and then it weighs too much, float sinks a bit and you have fuel spilling out of the bowl.


Quote:
Not having the "horseshoe" in place or in backwards of how it is supposed to hold the float/pin down can also cause a flooding issue.


Quote:
....float weight should be on top of float mine said 10.5g it was 16.6g wouldn't shut valve and would over run carb.


This page may help you:
http://noslocars.blogspot.com/2011/09/rebuilding-solex-h-3031-carb-for-baja.html

Any chance your electromagnetic fuel cut-off jet is broken and stuck open?


Last edited by KTPhil on Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Lets start at the beginning....Car "running out of gas" on the freeway is typically lack of fuel (yeah, I know...Duuuhhhh). Can be cause by defective fuel pump, restriction in the fuel lines or tank spigot, OR a clogged gas tank vent. Instead of throwing parts at it, you should have done a little more troubleshooting. The tank vent is easy...When it ran out of gas, crack the cap and listen for a woosh or hiss sound of air coming in to the tank. If that was the case and even if it wasnt, try leaving the cap cracked open and continue driving.

Crud in the tank or fuel lines will cause fuel starvation - easy to test. Pop he fuel line off by the rear axle or the pump and see if you have a nice flow or just a trickle.

Last thing - 6 lbs on the new fuel pump....Shouldnt be that high. BUT it looks like the pump foot is recessed into the pump body, so you should have the right pushrod. I would have returned the pump. I'd put your original pump back on it and see what the fuel pressure does at a high idle speed - like 3000 RPMs after a few minutes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyone got a spec on the float weight? A small digital scale should be accurate enough. One post says 10.5 grams.

Mine says 10.5g on top of it. I'll see if I can find a scale to weigh it.

Quote:

Any chance your electromagnetic fuel cut-off jet is broken and stuck open?

Is that the jet on the driver's side of the car with a wire to it?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas in oil Reply with quote

Quote:
Lets start at the beginning....Car "running out of gas" on the freeway is typically lack of fuel (yeah, I know...Duuuhhhh). Can be cause by defective fuel pump, restriction in the fuel lines or tank spigot, OR a clogged gas tank vent. Instead of throwing parts at it, you should have done a little more troubleshooting. The tank vent is easy...When it ran out of gas, crack the cap and listen for a woosh or hiss sound of air coming in to the tank. If that was the case and even if it wasnt, try leaving the cap cracked open and continue driving.

Running out of gas was a bad way to put it. The car would sputter then die. That is a problem but at the moment I need to get gas from going into my oil. I'm thinking its either the cap not venting or the car overheating and causing vapor lock.
Quote:
I'd put your original pump back on it and see what the fuel pressure does at a high idle speed - like 3000 RPMs after a few minutes.

I will try that once I overcome this problem.
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